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So this is just a tactic for all of you to enjoy.

I call it the choo-choo train.

This one involves multiple vehicles of different sizes.

I will use a Land Raider and a Predator as an example.

First, you place your Land Raider so there's enough room for the Predator to sit behind it.

Then you place your Predator behind the Land Raider.

When you wish to fire, note that you'll need to fire only 2/3 of your weapons (unless someone is stretched out in a conga line in front of you and you can hit with all of your weapons).

Usually this will be a TL Las and Las, or AC and HB.

Now, since your front hull is square up against the back end of the Land Raider...no one can see it.

Granted, they can still shoot you, but now you have a 3+ cover save.

This makes killing you far more difficult.

Most people will learn to just run 3 LR since they are so much better now, but for you battleforce players...here's how you get use out of your Pred/LR combo.

This combo actually works best with a Chimera and a Leman Russ.

You can leave your guys inside the Chimera (being on the table edge won't kill the guys inside anymore if the Chimera does get popped), but you can fire the Chimera's turret multilaser and the guys inside heavy weapon out the top hatch without much concern for your safety. 3+ cover save really is nice.

Wouldn't it also grant a cover save to any units you targetted with the weapons on the back vehicle?

IIRC LOS is drawn from weapon mount, so no it wouldn't. The turret and sponcen on the predator in Stelek's example would be firing unobstructed.

Edit: of course it can not see through the LR so, it can't fire straight ahead, only kinda to the side.

Correct, you can only fire to the side, but it's really not difficult to shoot people in 5E given TLOS.

The usefulness of this strategy -- putting the predator's front hull up against the land raider -- seems it would be dependent upon the strength of the enemy's weapons. A S7 gun can only glance the front armor of a predator (AV13), and a S6 gun can't hurt it at all. On the other hand, they can penetrate the side armor (AV11).

If the enemy is in the front arc of the vehicle, cannot actually see the front hull, but can see the side, they can shoot the side. That grants you a 3+ save, but it also lets the enemy shoot the weaker armor, thereby giving a medium strength weapon the chance to do damage that it could not do otherwise. Against lascannons and railguns, this tactic is advantageous. Against shuriken cannons and plasma guns, not so much.

You could put the side armor of the predator against the land raider in such a way that the enemy is in the side arc and has to shoot at the front armor with a 3+ save. Of course, you would have to take care your tanks are far enough to the side that nothing can come around and hit the predator's rear armor. Also, it may be harder to shoot the predator's own weapons in this configuration.

This works great until something comes in from the side or back table edge.

There are ways around it, fast movers and what not. But it is a sick starting setup for that which is right across from you.

What comes in from the sides to worry about? Meltagun unit 30" away? I'm not so worried.

Lascannon sentinel is about all I'd care about really. Is there something else I should worry about?

Ork Kommandos with Rokkits
Tau Pirahna with Seeker missiles.
Drop Pods with Meltaguns
DS Terminators with Asscannons and Missile Launchers

Thats just off the top of my head of stuff that can hit deep in your territory on side armor one way or another. I'm sure there are more, and even more to come that I haven't thought of.

Well, in fairness, drop pods and deep strikers are going to usually be able to pull off side armor regardless.

How much better are Land Raiders? And why?

damage table makes tanks more survivable.

Phryxis wrote:How much better are Land Raiders? And why?

LR don't die unless you get lucky, are Tau, or have alot of melta weapons.

Jayden63 wrote:Ork Kommandos with Rokkits
Tau Pirahna with Seeker missiles.
Drop Pods with Meltaguns
DS Terminators with Asscannons and Missile Launchers

Thats just off the top of my head of stuff that can hit deep in your territory on side armor one way or another. I'm sure there are more, and even more to come that I haven't thought of.

Pirahna's you'd never setup like that, and honestly unless you park in a corner...you will always take shots in the sides from Pirahna's seekers because of the game mechanics. So...so what is new about this in 5E?

Drop Pods with Meltaguns are relatively rare in tournaments, people know how to beat them. IG with meltaguns are alot more common, and far more dangerous since they come with not 1-2 but 3-4 meltaguns.

Ork Kommandos with Rokkits x2 is scary for you? Well, they shouldn't be. Don't scare me.

Terminators with Asscannons got the nerf, and won't be as popular at tournaments as people think they are (and never really were, it was usually about the land speeders since 3xasscannons and 3xheavy bolters plus mobility > terminators). However, that said...they really aren't a huge threat. If they roll a 6, they pen you anyway. If they hit you from the front, they pen you 66% of the time with the rend...and autoglance. Slightly more dangerous from the side, but most veteran players deploy their terminators on the ground and walk into your range. More shots, better.

I've only seen a few people run missile launchers on terminators. They aren't bad per se, I've done it myself. At a tournament though, unless you are planning on making a 48" standoff army (which combined with running, doesn't exactly work) why not take the asscannons?

There are lots of things that can hit your side armor.

The question is, do people really need to? See, the entire point of this tactic is...they get to fire at your weaker side armor ANYWAY. Why risk a unit just to get a "clear" shot? Last I checked, Predators were never the uber at anything...are you afraid of them with your Tau? I know I'm not.

I'm not sure I really see the logic behind placing a land raider to protect the AV13 front armour of a predator. In order to fire the predator you'll then be firing to the sides of the predator, where enemy survivors will be returning fire against your weaker side armour. In order to fire, you have to expose your flimsy side armour... which is the real weakness of the predator relative to land raiders.

I would have thought a better option would be to protect the flank armour by deploying your land raider to the side of the predator. You keep your full LOS to the front and gain a little protection from infiltrating/flanking AT weapons.

Getting a 3+ cover save seems worthwhile to me.

shouldn't the pred drive backwards, thus protecting its rear armour up against the LR?

Stelek wrote:

Phryxis wrote:How much better are Land Raiders? And why?

LR don't die unless you get lucky, are Tau, or have alot of melta weapons.

What about the humble and sexy bright lance or haywire grenades?

@ Clang:

I guess, if you are afraid of being shot from offboard?

@ Squig_herder:

Alot of people don't currently bring BL. (Or Haywire grenades)

This will change as they learn their lessons from the LR beat down.

Till then though...

It's a 3+ cover save because of...?

I wish I had the BRB with me right now...

Its to do with p62 and forcing the closest (kind of) side to not be the side your shooting at (a super tweak for hulldown anomolies)

I've done a similar thing (on the alternate axis)with a vindicator with whirlwind wingmen on a flank charge, Forceing the shots from the opponent center and far side onto the stronger armour at the front and gaining the 3+, since no one can be bothered to shoot out the whirlwinds (who maintain firing angles mostly throughout)...I think mine could be done with rhinos..
Its quite a cool thing that can be used in game fairly easily.
I'll try your variant soon

Stelek
Why not drive then rotate sideways. this way the enemy is shooting the front of the pred and it is still protected by the land raider (for the 3+)
if the train formation is cocked to one side the chances the enemy can come around you and shoot your rear is low and you can move the pred around when that possibility rears its head.

Can you actually hide all of a preds hull against a LR from the side? I don't think so.

Even if you could, how do you fire 2 weapons??

You could hide it all depending on the angles involved, same with firing two weapons.
Its a cool trick though, i like it.

This might work better with 2x Leman Russes going back-to-back to prevent rear shots on either. Makes those DSers a _lot_ less scary.

I think people are missing the point of what Stelek is suggesting. This isn't aboot blocking shots at the front armor (or the rear) armor of the tank. If you're in the front arc, or rear arc, you shoot at that AV. But, the rules state that if you're in an arc, but don't have LOS to that arc, the target gets a 3+ cover save AND you still shoot at the arc you're in.

If you went back to back, you'd be getting a 3+ save shooting at AV10, which is actually a lot worse than shooting at a 4+ save and AV13.

Thank you Phryxis. I couldn't quite seem to get the point across.

Oh and it's a 3+ save and AV13...right? lol

Again people "refute" a posted strat by saying, "but I could just take X from codex Y"

Sure the opponent might have something to defeat this tactic in some situations, but so what? How does that invalidate the tactic, and the sharing of it for the many many situations where it will work?

So negative.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought the facing arc rules had changed and I had somehow missed it.

I would contend that, if rear shots are inevitable on a given turn (against a highly mobile enemy such as drop troops or melta speeders), the rear-to-rear setup might be better.

Phryxis wrote:If you're in the front arc, or rear arc, you shoot at that AV. But, the rules state that if you're in an arc, but don't have LOS to that arc, the target gets a 3+ cover save AND you still shoot at the arc you're in.

Wrong. From page 62:

"It may rarely happen that the firing unit cannot see any part of the facing they are in (front, side or rear), but they can still see another facing of the target vehicle. In this case they may take the shot against the facing they can see, but to represent such an extremely angled shot, the vehicle receives a 3+ cover save."

So in this case, they shoot at the facing they can see, not the facing they are in.