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It is very interesting. The Rattling the Drain was the best part. I'm not sure I could face the shame of trying that on someone.

We are assuming that the sisters are in front of the whole gun line. The guard unit moved forward 12 inches to get in front of them and within charge range. That means that they have moved out of the rapid fire range of any other squad in the gun line. They also lost a firing turn by moving.

The lascannon team has had two turns of Pile-In! and the marines one. Eighteen inches is more than enough to run around the sisters. It could work if the squad was already positioned so and the marines did 8-9 unsaved wounds. Then the sisters could save the lascannon and stop the melee. It we want to be precise, the rules say: "Models stuck and wounded in close combat can attempt armour saves..."

The sisters could just as easily be a guard squad or remnants squad in 4+ cover that doesn't move. The Marines shoot them and assault, the unit dies. However, the marines are now in Rapid Fire range of several other infantry squads. The counter to this is assaulting with several units at the same time, drawing several guard units into melee.

Conscripts do seem less viable with -1 per wound to morale checks.

MajorTreble wrote:It is very interesting. The Rattling the Drain was the best part. I'm not sure I could face the shame of trying that on someone.

No reason not to. How the rules work is GW's fault, not yours.

MajorTreble wrote:We are assuming that the sisters are in front of the whole gun line. The guard unit moved forward 12 inches to get in front of them and within charge range. That means that they have moved out of the rapid fire range of any other squad in the gun line. They also lost a firing turn by moving.

"In front of" is usually a inch or two.

The guard only move at the last minute, so they only lose a turn of shooting in the turn they charge.

Remember how firing works now--when all of my guys are in range of one of your guys, everyone gets to play.

MajorTreble wrote:The lascannon team has had two turns of Pile-In! and the marines one. Eighteen inches is more than enough to run around the sisters. It could work if the squad was already positioned so and the marines did 8-9 unsaved wounds. Then the sisters could save the lascannon and stop the melee. It we want to be precise, the rules say: "Models stuck and wounded in close combat can attempt armour saves..."

Just one turn of pile in, actually. The turn they would pile in again (his turn), they're dead or at the position where only the lascannon team is left alive.

My Sisters stretch 20". The big base cannot actually get around because you have to stay in coherency when you are done moving. So the guardsmen right in front of the Sisters cannot move, because he has to stay within 2" of the guardsman in front of him (in base with a marine) and the lascannon team behind. Since the team would have to move 15" (down one side and back up the other) it's not possible for it to move. However, you remember how there's always a little spot on those old bathtubs for the plug to go? You can form up a couple sisters around the team, and it cannot then move any way you slice it.

No idea what you are going on about with the models wounded thing. If the combatants cannot get into base with each other (the marines cannot get into base with the lascannon base without touching the Sisters, who they are NOT in combat with so this is not allowed) the combat ends.

MajorTreble wrote:The sisters could just as easily be a guard squad or remnants squad in 4+ cover that doesn't move. The Marines shoot them and assault, the unit dies. However, the marines are now in Rapid Fire range of several other infantry squads. The counter to this is assaulting with several units at the same time, drawing several guard units into melee.

Marines never rapid fire if they can assault multiple squads of guard. It's just stupid. Even if you "lose" combat, you win.

MajorTreble wrote:Conscripts do seem less viable with -1 per wound to morale checks.

Conscripts without fearless just die and get run down.

Conscripts with fearless get pounded by fearless wounds. They do last longer, but given the "IC must move into combat if possible" rule, you can't hide Gaunt in the back anymore...so he WILL die long before the 50 guardsmen do.

I understand better now. The lascannon team would be stuck immobile during the Pile-In.

I meant that the guard rapid fires, not the marines.

Guard rapid fires when exactly? I'm confused. lol which step are the guard rapid firing? The other guard?

Surrounding guard units get two shots if the marines are within twelve inches on the guard's turn.

interesting article...not sure i completely understand it, but i may try it just to see if it works. lol.

I'm not ashamed to try anything that GW or houserules will allow. no matter how cheesey.

So, let me just get this clear, because I'm not sure if this is how it works. The guard charge in, moving 6". The lascannon team does not move, effectively, because the solid line of sisters in front of them is between them and the rest of the squad, and moving 6" in any direction doesn't get them any closer. Since their base is larger than any gap between sisters, they can't move closer. There is still a single guardsman, maybe two, that must be held back from the combat to maintain coherency, since that's the overriding rule for movement into combat.

Now, for rattling the chain, you're assuming I suppose that the guard in direct combat are wiped out eventually. Assume the lascannon squad passes their LD test on unmodified 9. Since the combined 6" move cannot get either unit past the line of Sisters, the combat ends and both sides simply consolidate - and then the Marines get rapid-fired into.

This is a really sneaky trick, and one that I hope I would only see in tournament play, because I doubt you'd make many friends with this. Mostly because it relies on two things that aren't seen very often in casual play - intermingling of units for the express purpose of blocking friendly movement, and utilizing the size of the heavy weapon base (which I thought I remembered the Guard codex saying to take as an abstraction, but I'm probably wrong). Guess it doesn't work for those with the older Guard HW models, that had either no base for the gun or just a cavalry base.

tzeentchling wrote:So, let me just get this clear, because I'm not sure if this is how it works. The guard charge in, moving 6". The lascannon team does not move, effectively, because the solid line of sisters in front of them is between them and the rest of the squad, and moving 6" in any direction doesn't get them any closer. Since their base is larger than any gap between sisters, they can't move closer. There is still a single guardsman, maybe two, that must be held back from the combat to maintain coherency, since that's the overriding rule for movement into combat.

Yes.

tzeentchling wrote:Now, for rattling the chain, you're assuming I suppose that the guard in direct combat are wiped out eventually. Assume the lascannon squad passes their LD test on unmodified 9.

Two assault rounds is often enough to wipe, but you can always "fail" the guardsmen by turning the book off.

tzeentchling wrote:Since the combined 6" move cannot get either unit past the line of Sisters, the combat ends and both sides simply consolidate - and then the Marines get rapid-fired into.

Correct.

tzeentchling wrote:This is a really sneaky trick, and one that I hope I would only see in tournament play, because I doubt you'd make many friends with this. Mostly because it relies on two things that aren't seen very often in casual play - intermingling of units for the express purpose of blocking friendly movement, and utilizing the size of the heavy weapon base (which I thought I remembered the Guard codex saying to take as an abstraction, but I'm probably wrong). Guess it doesn't work for those with the older Guard HW models, that had either no base for the gun or just a cavalry base.

If GW didn't make gakky rules, they wouldn't have things like this in their game would they?

Or standardized base rules that are actually published and required.

You can always rebase older models, that's what GW sells the new base packs for.

I like the sound of this tactic. Lets face it, Guardsmen are hard pressed with the new brutal combat rules, so this is more about getting a fair fighting chance than a game-winning advantage. Its a little bit evil, but hats off to the author: Its clever.

Questions that spring to mind:
Why not use a heavy bolter instead of a Lascannon? The base size is equally huge, the cost is lower.
Why not use guardsmen with CCW and pistols - oh come on, who hasn't wanted to actually have a reason to arm them for a charge like that?
Why not conscripts, anchored by a BS2 heavy bolter? (This is assuming conscripts spit into groups of 10 with a HB each)
What about flamers on the sister's clean up crew?

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:I like the sound of this tactic. Lets face it, Guardsmen are hard pressed with the new brutal combat rules, so this is more about getting a fair fighting chance than a game-winning advantage. Its a little bit evil, but hats off to the author: Its clever.

Thank you.

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:Questions that spring to mind:

Quite a few!

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:Why not use a heavy bolter instead of a Lascannon? The base size is equally huge, the cost is lower.

Heavy bolter guardsmen are in my view totally worthless. 36" range is where guardsmen go to die.

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:Why not use guardsmen with CCW and pistols - oh come on, who hasn't wanted to actually have a reason to arm them for a charge like that?

Cannot have doctrines in allied IG.

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:Why not conscripts, anchored by a BS2 heavy bolter? (This is assuming conscripts spit into groups of 10 with a HB each)

Cannot have conscripts in Sisters armies.

It would work in a IG army with Sister allies.

You cannot split conscripts up. They are 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 man platoons.

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:What about flamers on the sister's clean up crew?

What about them? Do you need them for some reason? I don't see the need. Bolters will suffice.

All good answers thanks.

Heavy bolter guardsmen are in my view totally worthless. 36" range is where guardsmen go to die.

I'll leave the jury out on Heavy Bolters, since high rate of fire seems to be trumping AP due to abundant cover saves, and because if you're sacrificing a heavy weapon as a plug it might as well be cheap.
Otherwise can you please explain more about what you mean by worthless and that specific range being where guardsmen go to die?

Another question is have you had a chance to playtest this, or is it more theoretical? I was happy to have an ideal chance to try it myself yesterday, trying SOB with IG for the first time vs Marines. Unfortunately the enemy didn't play along, and held a static defence while outflanking all his combat squads lol

Ah well, I won the game, but didnt get to try your fancy new tactic for doing so.
Thanks Stelek.

Technically, Guardsmen go to die at all ranges....

Outflanking combat squads. Which Codex is this?

Guard can always use a handful of lascannons, to keep the enemy honest.

Autocannons are better for guard than HB. 12" range, +2 strength, 1 less shot.

It is my current army build that is letting me do this.

I guess I should say HB aren't totally worthless anymore, but I prefer autocannons.

Outflanking combat squads. Which Codex is this?

Its something that has happened to me in 2 games in the last 3 days, including at a tournament. I looked it up:

'During deployment players may specify that units with the scout or infiltrate special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy.'

Tactical squads can buy the infiltrate ability, offering a whole new level of threats to anything within 12' of either board edge - and a neat way around your SOB/IG maginot line.

I guess I should say HB aren't totally worthless anymore, but I prefer autocannons.

I am with you on that; my army has 0 HB vs 12 Autocannons. I am now considering a couple of HB, and this seemed like an ideal place to put the cheaper gun that needs to be near the front line anyway.

And those squads do not get combat squads.

ie cheated.

I like the tactic, but have one big question:

Why can the Marines not come into contact with your lascannon team? For the Guard to go through the gaps in the Sisters, they had to have a 1"+ gap - which the Marines can now filter through during Pile-In. The rules for Pile-In say that the movement follows the rules for moving assaulting models (meaning they can come within 1" of other models), except that they're not slowed by difficult terrain.

Hmmm.

I move my guardsmen through the gaps.

I move my Sisters and I close the gaps to .99 inches.

Then I assault with the guardsmen?

I love you man!

Ok - perhaps that should be part of your tactic then: it's not immediately clear.

And those squads do not get combat squads.
ie cheated.

Woah, strong language!

In more detail; the opponents had purchased Infiltrate for their tactical squad at X per model, allowing them to outflank.
They had then taken the chaper divergence advantage of Take The Fight To Them, allowing tacticals to be armed with a CCW and a bolt pistol (along with the usual Vet with Power Fist).

The result is a squad that can come in from either side of the board, fire bolt pistols and charge anything within about 11' of the edge. It was very effective, and has all the makings of a popular tactic to come.

Has nothing to do with combat squads.

Will be nerfed in...countdown in 2 months....so who cares how 'effective' it is when it's going to be non-existent as an army in short order?

Aka like the Chaos Demons book.

Probably true. Its not so much the marines in particular, any army with infiltrate available to close combat armed troops can now side-step conventional 'defence in depth'.

That doesn't detract from the ability of your excellent tactic to halt a full frontal charge to allow a vital extra turn of shooting; just acknowlegement that the game got a bit more 3 dimensional

True, but you can sit in the middle of the board and nullify most of that advantage.

Toss in the randomness of how many come in, the weakness versus mech armies, and where they come in....well, I'm not that worried.

Even if it does own several of my armies lol.

It seems to me that this tactic would be virtually impossible to pull off.

For starters, the guard are a softer target so most players would shoot them first. That will help out the marines when the guard charge.

In order to position your unit in such a way that the lasscannon team maintains coherency would require you to move your team within 4" of the Marines. If you are wrong on that 4" your squad wont charge.

Also as everything has coutercharge in 5th, then a guard squad beat up by bolters with marines attacking them would be wiped out including the lasscannon.


Sounds nice, cheesy, no. This tactic will almost never be pulled off and even if it is wont work all the time.

Darkness wrote:It seems to me that this tactic would be virtually impossible to pull off.

For starters, the guard are a softer target so most players would shoot them first.

I don't know if you're seeing the full picture Darkness. For a start, the guard arent a softer target to shooting if used as Stelek is describing. They are kept behind the SOB until its charge time, meaning a 4+ cover save vs fire, and any sensible Gaurd player with Camo would be getting a 3+ save. They might as well be space marines; most enemies will not fire at them instead of the 3+ SOB in front.

The next great thing about guard is if a squad does get depleted by fire, there are always other squads to use for the charge

I'm not saying this is a foolproof guaranteed tactic, but its far from impossible to pull off.

im not saying its impossible, just unlikely. For this to work we have to assume that the guard unit is at full strength, and that the marines are advancing and nothing like terrain or other units are in the way.

Tell you what. Win a decent size tourney were you used this at least once and I may change my mind.

For this to work we have to assume that the guard unit is at full strength

or that a depleted squad doesn't charge, but is spaced widely enough to mean the marines have to charge it in their turn?

Tell you what. Win a decent size tourney were you used this at least once and I may change my mind.

Hahah, win a tournament? Its a Guard tactic.

I notice that the infantry squad is actually 13 members large.

It is still an interesting strategy. It does give the marine squad two turns to wipe out the infantry squad which is very likely, especially if they have an IC or counter charge. The lascannon is still easy pickings for independant fire.

An alternative which you didn't mention is a platoon with two infantry squads and a command squad with the first infantry squad is in cover. This ties up the unit for three rounds and the command squad could live to hold an objective.

i play 3 small units of RR for counterassault. They work wonders and are easy to hide. FACT. On boards with no cover, of course they will die, but i've found 3 6 man rr squads, one usually offboard in reserve are very useful late game for countercharging enemy assaulting squads. In some games they have won me the game because they cleared up the enemy's assault on my firebase.