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So I keep looking at how my IFP are performing lately and I am intrigued at using the Kayzay + Underboss instead of the IFP (or in conjunction with them at 750).

Reading up on them they look great: DEF 16 in combat, Stealth, Repost, Ventilate. The only downside is that AOE's kill them dead, but I'm finding that most AOE's that get thrown at my IFP much the same thing happens anyway (since most AOE's I get hit with are spells that do the base damage to everything in the AOE), and the Kayzay don't want to be in shield wall.

Just wondering if people have experience with them.

I just got mine recently. Unfortunately, the only games I've had with them have been against Protectorate. Some Deliverers here, a Zealot bomb there, and I've got two Assassins left running off the board. One game, 4 or 5 of them got to charge some Vengers and gutted two of them. That was neat. Then they ate an Ashes to Ashes.

Anyways, Kayazy die to AOEs like it's their job. I've found it difficult to get them to my opponent's lines intact. Against anyone else, or if you can deploy second and put the Kayazy far far away from enemy AOEs, they should be able to get more people into melee.

Hrmm, basically it's coming down to them and Winter Guard. I feel that I should add a different infantry unit to the army for when I'm playing 750 Points and I'm trying to decide between the two, despite the fact that both do very different things.

Well, like I said, if you're playing against Protectorate, don't expect the Assassins to do much. Against anyone else, they'll probably do fine.

Winterguard has been one of my favorite units since Prime simply because of CRA. I've found it to be tremendously helpful in capping solos and bonejacks and softening up heavier targets for my jacks to charge. With the UA, they add infantry killing (with the spray attacks) to their list of capabilities, and they don't instantly suck in melee due to CMA.

But there are a few reasons why Winterguard aren't very popular.

1) They're fragile. DEF 12 means direct fire has no problem hitting you, and ARM 13 means even AOEs can take you out.
2) The 8" range on their guns. Sure, they have a decent 14" threat range (17" with eSorscha), but that puts them close enough to be retaliated against. Combined with 1), you might get one salvo off before most of the unit disappears.
3) The cost. At one point less than a unit of IFP, they often get overshadowed by a unit with less overall utility but requires less finesse.

I'd mention the sculpts, but since you're also considering Kayazy, you're probably not worried about attractive models.

Despite their drawbacks, I've gotten plenty of good use out of them before the UA, WA, and Grigorovich came out. My favorite tactic is to have them follow behind the IFP. Anything that circles around or punches through them gets a face full of blunderbuss. You can even shoot through the melee at any medium or large bases. Another tactic is to send them down a flank so you avoid your opponent's main force, but it might not be a good idea depending on what's opposite them.

The add-ons patch some of the problems they have, but some consider it just making an already over-priced unit more expensive. I, of course, disagree. The UA increases the unit's DEF and Tough is easily obtainable for them (Grigorovich, eSorscha, eIrusk). I've had moderate success running such a unit as a front line, though I still think it's not the best use for them.

They function like a Swiss Army Knife, and that's what I like about them. They are the most versatile unit in Khador's army, and maybe even all of WM/H. There are better anti-infantry and anti-jack solutions. There are better ranged and melee fighters out there. But how many units can switch their function from turn to turn? How many units can shoot a rocket at a jack with one guy, CRA with six others, and spray down an infantry squad with another six? And next turn charge something and hit at 10+4d6 for damage or higher if they CMA? None. That's why they're fragile, and expensive. The only thing they can't do is use magic (Oooh, maybe they'll get a Greylord as a weapon attachment in the next expansion!).

Sorry this got so verbose, but I have a lot more experience with Winterguard than Kayazy.

Honestly I'm leaning towards them more than the Kayzay, just because I already have two Melee infantry units (IFP+UA and now Demo Corps) and adding some ranged options.

Still, where are you getting this 4d6 damage on the charge? I thought Kovnik Joe just adds +2 to their attack and damage rolls, nothing that gave them extra dice (or is that with eSorcha?).

And yes, the models are terrible either way, but at least the Winterguard look slightly better.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Honestly I'm leaning towards them more than the Kayzay, just because I already have two Melee infantry units (IFP+UA and now Demo Corps) and adding some ranged options.

Still, where are you getting this 4d6 damage on the charge? I thought Kovnik Joe just adds +2 to their attack and damage rolls, nothing that gave them extra dice (or is that with eSorcha?).

Grigorovich has the +2 MAT and +2 STR speech and an ability where friendly Winterguard get +2 to hit and an extra damage die against models he's engaging.

If you need a ranged infantry unit, Winterguard can do that. I recommend getting either the UA or Grigorovich to start out with at the very least, preferably both. The WA isn't necessary, but I like it. But what kind of Khadoran would I be if I didn't suggest Widowmakers? If you don't have them, get them.

I agree with your assessment of moving on to a ranged unit next, if only to keep your collection well-rounded. You don't want to run into a fight where guns are practically necessary and find out your entire force doesn't have any (eMagnus and Saeryn come to mind).

I've got Widowmakers, I field them every game. They're my answer to "the Bane Knight" problem as one of the guys who started almost right after us from the GW group started Cryx and bought about 20 of them + Tartaurus.

They've learned to shoot the Widowmakers with AOE's though, so it's getting harder to keep them alive, but it's all application which I'm getting through practice. And it's only 4 Shots per turn, so if I want more shooty shooty stuff, I probably need to look elsewhere as they're FA:1.

Do you really recommend Joe?

Basically I'm leaning towards "something troop and ranged" rather than another melee unit. Assault Kommando's look nicer on paper with the higher RAT (lol), longer range, and double tap.

Of course I still lean towards the Winterguard because the have CRA which I just see as being this huge plus that puts them over the Assault Kommandos. Plus they're fearless with the UA, though a full unit costs more points. Adding Joe makes it REALLY pricey though and I'm tempted to not use the Winterguard as Melee units unless against something they could already beat anyway.

If I had to add one attachment or solo to buff my Winterguard, I'd take the UA. It comes with a defensive buff (Bob and Weave order for +2 DEF), mobility buff (Hasten mini-feat), melee buff (CMA), ranged buff (POW 10 sprays), and psychology buff (9 CMD on the lieutenant and Fearless from the unit standard).

Joe mostly buffs their melee and can make them Tough. I never plan on getting them in melee, yet it usually happens. Sometimes, it's because I need a little extra punch, so I charge. Other times, I get charged. If you keep the IFP or MoW DC nearby to bail them out of melee, or keep the WG from getting engaged in the first place, Joe's role is trivialized and he could be dropped. But you'll miss Tough, I bet.

I just recently assembled my AKs, so I have no experience with them. Just by looking at their stats, though, they're more durable and more accurate (especially with the gas effect debuff) than WG, but they have trouble hurting hard targets. If you back them up with jack killer of some type, I don't see why they wouldn't do just fine.

Hey, sorry to bring up such an old topic.
I just wanted to mention to the OP that AoE damage on spells is halved, just like AoE damage on a ranged attack.

Also, Kayazy are amazing. It only takes 3 or 4 of them remaining to kill almost any 'caster (warlocks are slightly different thanks to transfers). If 4 Assassins are engaged with a 'caster, that's 9 points of straight damage, on top of whatever you roll for damage on their initial attack (providing they all hit, of course).

It is easier to keep them alive than one might think; Gorman's Smoke Bombs are great for this, also screening with 'jacks & medium-based models (read: Demo Corps) since the mini-feat allows them to move through models, including those that are screening the enemy 'caster.

Of course, your mileage may vary, but I won 4 games at the last tournament I attended, all 4 using the Kayazy to get the 'caster kill.

Heh, funny you should post this.

My 10 Winterguard + UA are on eBay (just waiting on a bidder), and I'm contemplating either Kayazy Assassins or some Uhlans + Mandatory Solo (when he's released).

Or just forgoing it all together and putting the money into a Circle force. It's not that the Winterguard are really bad, it's just that I don't think they work for how I play Khador.

They seem like "Fido the little Terrier" that can do all sorts of neat little tricks: Roll Over, play dead, get the stick, etc.

But I'm more of a "Pitbull named Chopper" kind of Khador player, where the only kind of command the dog understands is "Chopper, sick balls!".

the "Pitbull" to which you are referring would be the Butcher (both versions) and Epic Vlad.
Combine with Demo Corps, Fenris, perhaps a unit of Doom Reavers (they're kinda pricey, point-wise, but can really tear stuff up, especially with Fenris).
Add Greylords & Kayazy to taste; or Uhlans & Markov for a pretty devastating feat (though Vlad's feat has been changed to not work on Character models, the Butcher's on Markov is very nice on a charge with the 4" AoE damage rolls also being boosted!).

I don't play the Butcher much, but I have seen first-hand his ability to single-handedly decimate scores of models. Just wait until he gets a War Dog to play with!

I play Khador a bit, and I can tell you that low Defense & high Armor is not quite as good as the reverse, but there are enough multi-wound models that your opponent will have to commit a considerable amount of resources to dealing with them if he/she wants to eliminate them without being conter-attacked.

While I get what you're saying about High DEF and lower ARM being "better", you have to understand that I'm the guy who's always got a Mortar so I can kill those high DEF lower armor troops (especially with Fire For Effect).

Also, I play against Menoth a lot so again, they tend to take out a lot of those types of models fairly quickly.

I dunno, I'm also going to start Circle soon and I'm still trying to react to the whole "What do you mean they're only ARM 13 troops??" thing.