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I've tried many different variations of the CSM "tactical" squad, and was wondering what everybody thinks is the best configuration for them.

I'm currently stuck on 10 CSM's in a rhino with AC (power weapon of course) and 2 melta guns. *Shrugz*

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Ohm

The answer to your question depends on what the rest of your army is doing and what you expect to do with your regular CSM squad.

What are you using those melta guns to do?

The best configuration for CSM in 5th edition? Paint em green and use them as plague marines. Keep the meltaguns.

well fist of all you have to stop thinking about CSM as space marines. they armies play differently so you cant use CSM in the same way.

it all depends on what roll you want them to have in your army. do you want then to sit at the back and provide fire support, move forward and assault or a combination of the two? you have to look at your army as one singular thing, not a collection of little things.

generally speaking cult marines are batter than CSM, so think about investing in some plague marines or noise marines instead.

solkan hit the nail on the head first. Regwon is alright on the money with regard to the Shadow Question (!).

But, given that the utility of Chaos Space Marines depends on the situation, they are also better than Cult Marines depending on the situation. Cult Marines are great specialists, but you pay a premium for them.

Take Plague Marines. They're great until you're assaulted by I4+ Power Weapon troops, or shot by Plasma/melta/etc, or until someone keeps them at arm's length (not so hard with Battlesuits, Eldar Jetbikes, etc).

Or take Noise Marines. They can shoot hard and hit firster than Chaos Space Marines, but hitting first doesn't mean penis when you're dealing with hidden Powerfists, Monstrous Creatures, or basically any tough troops with I3- (Plague Marines are pretty handy against them, ironically).

Instead of thinking about it as an 'either/or' proposition (an 'exclusively disjunctive proposition'), think about what you want your troops to do and consider whether it's worth it in terms of the product of risk and pay-off. Don't be afraid to hedge your bets by combining primary units of Chaos Space Marines with units Cult Marines to act as junior Elites.

Nurglitch wrote:Take Plague Marines. They're great until you're assaulted by I4+ Power Weapon troops, or shot by Plasma/melta/etc, or until someone keeps them at arm's length (not so hard with Battlesuits, Eldar Jetbikes, etc).

Or take Noise Marines. They can shoot hard and hit firster than Chaos Space Marines, but hitting first doesn't mean penis when you're dealing with hidden Powerfists, Monstrous Creatures, or basically any tough troops with I3- (Plague Marines are pretty handy against them, ironically).

How do regular CSM's fare against the above scenarios....oh that's right no better! In fact, the cult marines do better, because fearless is good!

I was mostly being facetious, but based on my own experience of using both cult marines and CSM at the same time in the same army, and seeing my CSM break and run off, unralliable under half strength, and recognizing the importance of that last troop model standing on the objective at the end of the game...

Noise marines without sonic weapons are only 5 points more than basic CSMs. They can't take meltaguns (though they can take a doom siren) but 5 points more to make your CSM fearless and I5 is a bargain.

I agree with Nurglitch.

It really depends on the roll you want them to take in the army.

CSM squads are important to the list because of their flexibility and lower cost then the cult troops.

It really comes to what roll you want them to play in the army.

Playing a mech assault force? How about 10 Marines with a Flamer or two, Powerfist, and Icon of Khorne or Slaneesh.

Want an objective grabber? What about a unit of 10-20 with a Powerfist, Plasmagun, and Icon of Nurgle or Tzeentch. Through a character in there for higher leadership and anti-cc, and you have a unit that can sit on an objective forever.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I was mostly being facetious, but based on my own experience of using both cult marines and CSM at the same time in the same army, and seeing my CSM break and run off, unralliable under half strength, and recognizing the importance of that last troop model standing on the objective at the end of the game...

Noise marines without sonic weapons are only 5 points more than basic CSMs. They can't take meltaguns (though they can take a doom siren) but 5 points more to make your CSM fearless and I5 is a bargain.

In the few times I used them they worked rather well. So it may be a "your results may vary" situation.

Fearless isn't necessarily a great thing, especially if you take Noise Marines in small squad (as is the temptation).

I think the key to CSM is this "always take a Rhino and an Icon". They are meant to be able to get homers far forward for things like Chaos Terminators and Lesser Deamons and be able to grab an objective.

I totally understand a lot of people's argument for no reg CSM and all cult marines(it works, but you pay for it), but I run reg CSM to good effect every game I play.

Since 2/3 of all games you play will have objectives. If there are objectives, I camp a 10 man squad of CSM with icon of Chaos Glory and a lascannon on the rear objective(s). There's less chance of them getting into trouble(but always keep in mind DS and DP units) and have cheap fire bases with anti-tank that do what I need- hold objectives, contribute to the shooting, and don't break easily. If they get into trouble, I try to keep a CC heavy unit near to support them.

I don't like to add champs or P fists, it just ends up getting expensive(that's when you hit a points total that begs the question of- why not culstists?), and with support a turn away, I'm not too worried.

I usually also run a squad of reg CSM with two flamers(or 1 flamer 1 melta) in a rhino to rush medium range objectives. Plague marines are best, but why not have both with all the points you're saving?

And I usually also take a squad of cult marines or two for really getting certain goals accomplished.

I would rather let cheaper CSM do simple jobs and have more points left over for other stuff.

Fearless is nice, but it's not the no-brainer that it used to be, particularly when you consider the relative costs of Cult Marines and Chaos Space Marines.

Take Plague Marines, for example. A unit of Plague Marines hit by an AP2 is going to be hurt worse than an equal (in points) unit of Chaos Space Marines. Take five Plague Marines, for example. They would cost something like 115. That would buy you a unit of six Chaos Space Marines with a Champion and an Icon of Chaos Glory. Each Plague Marine lost is going to hurt you worse than each Chaos Space Marine, since you're already starting with fewer riflemen and you have less to lose.

So yes, regular Chaos Space Marines will do better than Plague Marines in the scenarios I've mentioned.

That's not to say that the unit of Plague Marines won't be handy in all sorts of scenarios where their Feel No Pain and T5 makes 2x the difference, but that effectiveness has economies of scale, particularly against high powered weapons and enemies. There will be scenarios where using Plague Marines will be a waste of points and their inability to absorb those extra wounds and continue to exist will fail you.

To get on my favourite hobby horse, Chaos Space Marines are to Cult Marines what Chaos Dreadnoughts are to Chaos Terminators: a cheaper alternative whose 'weaknesses' can be covered or even exploited by a good player - particularly with the extra points you save by not paying a premium!

Nurglitch wrote:Chaos Space Marines are to Cult Marines what Chaos Dreadnoughts are to Chaos Terminators

And what Not Good is to Good.

As ever, an inspiring and bold commentary, made with deft but succinct prose; almost poetry. But, as you say, to intelligent and thoughtful posts what a Chaos Dreadnought is to Deathwing Terminators.

What do you want them to do? Who do you play? I personally hate basic CSM as they have 2 attacks basic........This makes them much more deadly than SM in combat. Also it's 5 points each that for a 10 man squad is 50 points or a 1/3 of a Defiler etc.

I don't play chaos space marines but I think taking CSM with a lascannon is not a good idea. You are better off with meltaguns in my opinion.

All in all you pay a lot of points for a unit thats only problem is that other people specialize in killing it.

from what I have found playing Chaos for the last couple of months is that Cult marines are usually great in squads 10 or less and CSM work well in squads 10 or more. Only take IoCG, and forget AC's unless you want a GD to esplode from his tummy. Any icon on a CSM rubric squad other than IoCG is useless no matter the size.

the perceived benifits of CSM are either illusionary, or insignificant.

the suggestion that CSM provide you with more flexibility is an illusion because they are most effective in one dedicated role. if they are dedicated to one role, they will underperform in others. the various types of cult marines outperform CSM in every role for which they could be dedicated. attempting to make a CSM squad perform to many tasks will result in failure at all of them.

the concern that cult marines lose more pts per model when they take wounds is insignificant because this game is not about balancing a number sheet. it doesnt matter is you only have one model left on the table at the end of the game, as long as you win. cult marines with aid in your winning far better than CSM will. it doesnt matter if you lose some extra points as long as you are able to win. im happy to let my plague marines sit on an objective and get plasma'd to death, because im save in the knowledge that they will not run away. i would much rather lose 200pts of plague marines that will still be there, than 50pts of CSM that will run away.

Noise marines outshoot and outfight CSM
Plague marines outlive CSM
1KSons outshoot CSM
Khorne Berzerkers outfight CSM
All Cult Marines will not run away

have a think about what it is you want your CSM to be doing. 99% of the time cult marines can do it better.

I have yet to see a unit that cannot excel at least one roll in a way that others can't compete with. Every unit has weaknesses and strengths, and ignoring them as a matter of course is an error that can be exploited by the more observant commanders.

That being said, I have never even seen the new chaos codex, so I don't know what rolls the tactical squads could fill, but there has to be something that they can do.

onlainari wrote:I don't play chaos space marines but I think taking CSM with a lascannon is not a good idea. You are better off with meltaguns in my opinion.

All in all you pay a lot of points for a unit thats only problem is that other people specialize in killing it.

10 CSM hold one,only one lazcannon?CSM are not SM.Since you can take obliterators,never think about it.

Ok...so i'm basically in the works of making an army that is in your face....my intentions are not to engage H2H, but if need be I can. I really want to just be able to camp objectives and deal some damage. Currently I run 4 squads of 10 in Rhinos...2 squads with 2 meltas and 2 squads with 2 flamers. I run 2 Havoc squads in rhinos (7man squads) with 4 meltas in each....yes I realized i'm a little obsessed with meltaguns, but they are the cheapest most effective gun to down MEQ. Lastly I run a squad of 4 terminators (2 lightning claws, 1 reaper auto-cannon) with a lord in terminator armour and a daemon weapon. Generally speaking I play 1700 point games.

In my experience, I have learned that without numbers you cannot hold objectives....and I personally do not like using cult marines (it's just a personal choice, I know they are good, I just can't pay that much for a squad), so that being said, am I going about this in the wrong way?

Thanx for all the comments!

Regwon wrote:the perceived benifits of CSM are either illusionary, or insignificant.

the suggestion that CSM provide you with more flexibility is an illusion because they are most effective in one dedicated role. if they are dedicated to one role, they will underperform in others. the various types of cult marines outperform CSM in every role for which they could be dedicated. attempting to make a CSM squad perform to many tasks will result in failure at all of them.

the concern that cult marines lose more pts per model when they take wounds is insignificant because this game is not about balancing a number sheet. it doesnt matter is you only have one model left on the table at the end of the game, as long as you win. cult marines with aid in your winning far better than CSM will. it doesnt matter if you lose some extra points as long as you are able to win. im happy to let my plague marines sit on an objective and get plasma'd to death, because im save in the knowledge that they will not run away. i would much rather lose 200pts of plague marines that will still be there, than 50pts of CSM that will run away.

Noise marines outshoot and outfight CSM
Plague marines outlive CSM
1KSons outshoot CSM
Khorne Berzerkers outfight CSM
All Cult Marines will not run away

have a think about what it is you want your CSM to be doing. 99% of the time cult marines can do it better.

Of course you have to tailor the types of units and unit equipment to the overall army and the role you want to give it. But you ignore the principal advantage standard CSM have, cost. They don't do things as well as cult troops but they sure trim the points down, which in competitive list building could mean an upgrade here, another character there.

Noise Marines out shoot CSM but only if fully upgraded, and then on a point per point bases the shooting is only marginally better which is easily countered by the fact that they have less wounds per points. The better Initiative is only slightly better and is subject to the situation they find themselves in. But usually it is lost on better assault units that will have them for breakfast.

Plague Marines don't out shoot CSM on a basic numbers argument. They don't outfight CSM, especially when your opponent has any sort of assault equipment in their unit. They rely on their sustainability.

Thousand Sons took a hit with the availability of cover and on hordes they are no better. The Sorceror is really the only reason to take them, CSM can do everything else better and for cheaper.

Beserkers are better at assault, but again you are paying a premium for that. Berserkers are slightly more obvious to your opponents and tend to bring more fire.


I am not trying to make an argument that CSM are better then Cult troops. Each Cult troop has its place, but I think there is an over reliance on Cult troops in most CSM players. They are expensive and can take points away from more killy things in the list if taken in great numbers. And if they are taken in great numbers, you are really specializing your forces and just asking for "that one bad match-up".

In all the games I have played with the new codex, I have found a mix of different troops along a common theme works best. Take a cult unit of your choice in a Rhino, add a CSM sqaud in a Rhino or in big numbers, plenty of Icons and *gasp* lesser deamons.You can distract your opponent with their percieved fear of the cult troops and land dedicated CC troopers and scoring deamons on objectives with your CSM.

Regwon wrote:the perceived benifits of CSM are either illusionary, or insignificant.

the suggestion that CSM provide you with more flexibility is an illusion because they are most effective in one dedicated role. if they are dedicated to one role, they will underperform in others. the various types of cult marines outperform CSM in every role for which they could be dedicated. attempting to make a CSM squad perform to many tasks will result in failure at all of them.

the concern that cult marines lose more pts per model when they take wounds is insignificant because this game is not about balancing a number sheet. it doesnt matter is you only have one model left on the table at the end of the game, as long as you win. cult marines with aid in your winning far better than CSM will. it doesnt matter if you lose some extra points as long as you are able to win. im happy to let my plague marines sit on an objective and get plasma'd to death, because im save in the knowledge that they will not run away. i would much rather lose 200pts of plague marines that will still be there, than 50pts of CSM that will run away.

Noise marines outshoot and outfight CSM
Plague marines outlive CSM
1KSons outshoot CSM
Khorne Berzerkers outfight CSM
All Cult Marines will not run away

have a think about what it is you want your CSM to be doing. 99% of the time cult marines can do it better.

I may have to agree here, to my surprise. You can get 10 Thousand Suns (with Doom Bolt) for the same price as 14 CSM (with power weapon and two Plasmaguns). The Thousand Suns are Fearless. The CSM trade wounds for Fearlessness.

On the other hand you could say this:

CSM outlive (wounds) Noise Marines.
CSM outshoot if not outfight Plague Marines.
CSM outfight 1KSons.
CSM outshoot Khorne Berzerkers.
And you can give them ld10 w/ a re-roll or the other Icons, too.

Meltaguns are effective anti-tank, especially against Land Raider or other transport rush. Thousand Suns in their defence can take Bolt of Change which is pretty effective anti-tank.

All in all I personally consider CSM to be a worthwhile choice, simply because they have bolters and high ld.

-------
I also just realized Khorne Berzerkers have Krak grenades. Nice!

That, and I agree with Mahu.

but then again it all comes down to what you want your CSM to do.

do you want then to hang back and be fire support? in which case you certainly wont want them to be getting into combat quickly because they wont be able to use their guns.

do you want them to be running forward and engaging the enemy in hand to hand? they you wont be giving them heavy weapons and you will certainly consider assault weapons over rapid fire weapons.

they can run to an objective, kill everything on it and then sit there blasting stuff, but then so can plague marines and noise marines, and with their equipment and abilities they will be able to do it better.

if you want to run a marine horde than thats fine, except that CSM are not SM, they wont be able to stick around once they are shot a bit and beaten in combat. any dedicated combat unit will eat CSM just like SM, and then CR will come into play, the CSM will break and possibly get run down.

im not saying CSM are bad, i cant certainly see the use of having a squad of 20 with an IoN, im just saying theyre not as good as cult marines.

Regwon wrote:but then again it all comes down to what you want your CSM to do.

do you want then to hang back and be fire support? in which case you certainly wont want them to be getting into combat quickly because they wont be able to use their guns.

Um... I may just be dumb, but I don't really understand what your point is with that statement

I think he's pointing out that whatever you want Chaos Space Marines to do, they'll waste another part of their talents.

It's difficult to tell.

If we are having a conversation, what they are, are Plague Marines. They have bolters and they are pretty good in close combat. Plague Marines are Fearless, T5 w/ FNP.

CSM have more wounds, Plague Marines are weak to Power Weapons, Plasma Cannons and plasma in general.

Tactically they make good auxilliary squads. Instead of taking three squads of Plague Marines, take 2 and 1. Instead of 3 squads of Berzerkers take 2 and 1. etc. The only one they don't really compare to are Noise Marines, who they only beat on wounds. But then Noise Marines are Noise Marines.

That, and Fearless goes a long way in close combat.

I don't know, I like the idea of a marine horde, and you can do that best with lots of Chaos Marines in either mid to large squads. As long as they don't get tarpitted they should do okay.

You may not have heard, but friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.

On the other hand you could say this:

CSM outlive (wounds) Noise Marines.
CSM outshoot if not outfight Plague Marines.
CSM outfight 1KSons.
CSM outshoot Khorne Berzerkers.
And you can give them ld10 w/ a re-roll or the other Icons, too.

I have to say that while this analysis is correct, it can be a bit misleading. You get the most bang for your buck when you choose squads with a known, well defined role for them to perform. To this end, you want a unit which can best serve its purpose. Sure, CSM can outfight 1Ksons, but that is because 1Ksons suck at it. You don't want to take units that are average as assault units, you want nasty assault units. In the same vein, you don't take Berserkers to shoot, you take Noise Marines or 1KSons. Sure the cults are slightly more expensive per wounds, but for any particular role that CSM can perform, there will be a better option in one of the Cults.

Now, Plague Marines may be weaker(if you mean by points lost per wound caused) to plasma and power weapons, but these same weapons will make meat of CSM too. Also, those extra wounds that CSM may have won't matter much if they run, especially from a combat.

Also with plague marines unless your fighting imperial guard there not going to have a squad with all plasma guns are they,and the plague marines will die,but there fire there own plasma back next turn.