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This seems to be a list that has been used a few times to illustrate why army X (recently demons) are not very good. But what i'm interested to know is what army is good at dealing with 5+ Land raiders in 1750 points? I'm guessing it's whatever army can deal out a lot of melta guns, or lance's. Yet at the same time any army which is heavy on these things probably won't be great against hoards. So I'm intrigued which builds for which armies can work? - Though at the same time i can't think of anyone i know in my area that fields more than 2 in a list

Iyanden Eldar

MC tyranid army with a flyrant.

fire back with monolith spam.

6 units of 30 orks with 3 rokkits in each and a nob with PK - 245 per unit
1,470 points for 180 orks

Tau spamming broadsides.
Dark-lance heavy DE.

Plague Marines with meltas. Drop pods with twin-linked melta marines. Obliterators. Multi-melta speeders

3x Fire dragon Eldar. Brightlance-heavy Eldar.

You'll note that these units have certain things in common. Either they're melta weapons, or bring the armor down to 12.

orks!!!!!! bw spam with tons of pks
sorry didnt see already used

tzeentchling wrote:3x Fire dragon Eldar. Brightlance-heavy Eldar.

Eldar can also take a cheap squad of Defenders with 2 Flamers + Warlock with Destructor in a Wave Serpent with TL Brightlance for ork/armor flexibility.

Fire Dragon Exarch can take a free Heavy Flamer for same reasons. Can ride in a similar Wave Serpent or a Falcon with Missile Launcher. If firing frag it is strength 4 template so a defensive weapon.

Wraithlords can have Scatter Laser and Wraithsword for some shots at hordes and reroll help hitting armor.

Don't forget the Swooping Hawks with Haywire Grenades.

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau sort of.

Black Templar Crusader spam is much much much tougher to deal with since lance weapons don't work.

I've played against the 180 ork boyz with a land raider spam army and it did not end well for the boyz at all. 3 crusaders + flamers inside = dead orks.

immolator spam, you can pack about 9 immo's in 1750 and about 18 melta guns. it puts a hurt on most things.

seer council(s) on jetbikes, with other eldar goodies.

Battlewagonz with Deff Rollaz?

Imperial Guard infantry spam with meltaguns, especially when applied to command squads with four of them.

I'm wondering how Necrons would face against it. I think my Destroyers would make good work of the raiders, stripping em down in a couple rounds of shooting just as easily as any other tank. Some good Particle Whip shots should do a number as well.

Destroyers don't do much but hope for a immobilized result before the raider gets to their side of the board.

Most well written take-all-comers lists out there should be able to handle it, or at least have a chance against it.

If you don't have a chance against it, then there is something wrong with your army or your list.

Blackmoor wrote:Most well written take-all-comers lists out there should be able to handle it, or at least have a chance against it.

If you don't have a chance against it, then there is something wrong with your army or your list.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. A take-all-comers list is going to be weakest against someone going to the far extremes of Mechanized or Horde armies. You just can't optimize to deal with both at the same time. The assertion that you can build an army that would be effective against both a 150+ ork army and a 6+ LR army is one I'd like to see a demonstration of (other than the example of using one to beat the other).

I also vote for Iyanden.

You can't get enough fire dragons into one army to handle that many LRs, and each unit of FDs will only get to attack one land raider before it gets smeared off the board. Brightlances are only marginally successful against LRs because of vehicle cover.

But massed wraithguard have both the shots and the durability to take on not only the land raiders, but also whatever is inside them for a whole game.

Balzac wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Most well written take-all-comers lists out there should be able to handle it, or at least have a chance against it.

If you don't have a chance against it, then there is something wrong with your army or your list.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. A take-all-comers list is going to be weakest against someone going to the far extremes of Mechanized or Horde armies. You just can't optimize to deal with both at the same time. The assertion that you can build an army that would be effective against both a 150+ ork army and a 6+ LR army is one I'd like to see a demonstration of (other than the example of using one to beat the other).

This is why you're going to see a lot of Salamanders on the table over the next year or two.

I go with DE, assuming no Blessed Hull upgrade.

I can easily fit 24 dark lances (not counting blasters) in 1850. That would be 16 hits per turn, mathing out to 2.6 glances and 5.3 penetrating hits per turn, assuming the raiders aren't hiding in the woods.

Only if they are mounting their wraithguard. If not, they don't do so well.

Capt K

Centurian99 wrote:Iyanden Eldar

Like I said before, only if they are mounting their wraithguard in serpents. Otherwise they will have a hard time of it. Just ask the Iyanden player I faced down with my 3 landraider Templar army in this past weekends 40k Radio RTT. You will still need at least one unit of Fire Dragons IMHO...although with a Pike on the exarch instead of a flamer. Better reach without risking your unit too much and hits on a 2+

Capt K

Flavius Infernus wrote:I also vote for Iyanden.

You can't get enough fire dragons into one army to handle that many LRs, and each unit of FDs will only get to attack one land raider before it gets smeared off the board. Brightlances are only marginally successful against LRs because of vehicle cover.

But massed wraithguard have both the shots and the durability to take on not only the land raiders, but also whatever is inside them for a whole game.

I think the Monoliths would probably go down to the LR.

3 LR w/ TL Las: ~1 Pen, 1 Glance each turn. Immobolize them, and they go down to Chain Fists and Thunder Hammers.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Like I said before, only if they are mounting their wraithguard in serpents. Otherwise they will have a hard time of it. Just ask the Iyanden player I faced down with my 3 landraider Templar army in this past weekends 40k Radio RTT. You will still need at least one unit of Fire Dragons IMHO...although with a Pike on the exarch instead of a flamer. Better reach without risking your unit too much and hits on a 2+

Capt K

Actually I was thinking walk 2 full-size troop units and mount one or two 5-wraith elite units. Press the center with the big units and chase down the outriders with the mounted guys.

I haven't actually run the numbers on mounted wraithguard versus fire dragons yet though. I mean, obviously the FDs would get more penetrating hits, but equally obviously the wraithguard are more likely to hang around long enough to get shots at a second or third target in subsequent turns.

10 wraithguard + conceal warlock ~400 points
10 wraithguard + conceal warlock ~400 points
Eldrad ~200 points
10 fire dragons +waveserpent with lances ~300
10 fire dragons +waveserpent with lances ~300
Fill the remaining points with harliquins.

Wraithguard squads march forward with eldrad fortuning them. Harliquins move up behind them and dragons sit back the first round or so and then zoom up which ever direction they need to go. Wraithguard lay waste to anything they get in range of. The Qunis hang back till something hits the wraithguard into hand to hand. The dragons zoom around melting down land raiders and terminator squads alike. If you do things right, you can cordinate your attacks so that one squad vapes a land raider and then another melts down whatever was inside. Remember that when a vehicle explodes, it's removed from the field so it doesn't offer any cover for the squad that came out. The mathhammer on 10 fire dragons averages out to 1 dead raider (in cover) a turn, 2 if they are out of cover. So the chances of them blowing one up is fairly good. Make sure you fire bright lances before you shoot any other weapons.

Light mech AND horde armies annihilate that army.

What's the point again?

Just to beat LR is an easy build.

Beating LR, Ork/Nid/Guard hordes, light mech, Eldar mech, and MC? Yeah that's a whole nother cookie.

Ravenwing with Melta spam. Speed to get close enough to blow the &*%$ out of the LR's.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Armored company with Vanqs and anti tank shell doctrine. Good for what ailes ya.

Not sure if Ravenwing is really a contender army.

Armored company has serious issues (like 2/3 of the missions are bad mamba jamas for them).

Not disagreeing that they can kill LR, but being able to kill LR -and- the other armies is the real issue I am trying to raise.

Stelek wrote:Light mech AND horde armies annihilate that army.

What's the point again?

Just to beat LR is an easy build.

Beating LR, Ork/Nid/Guard hordes, light mech, Eldar mech, and MC? Yeah that's a whole nother cookie.

I agree immensely. The LR spam army(Especially BT LRC spam, say) Is not hard to tool against. Sorry, I'm not going to live against Dev Spam from SM, 3x Fire Dragon squads+3x Fire Prisms, Armored company with tank shells, or Imp Guard las spam. It won't happen. I don't intend to, because people do not take those lists. They do not work as a well rounded army. I have only lost twice to all comers lists, and that was by making some very serious mistakes on my part. I think 9x Oblitz would do best as far as well rounded though, but since they lost Heavy Bolter in the new CSM dex, I don't see plasma being THAT devastating against ork or nid hordes.

I also don't see 6x squads of 3x rockits doing much against LR's either. It's like destroyers, only with less shots and less hitting.

LR spam works well because it is at the other end of the extreme list spectrum. Nid's and Orks have show how massively effective 180 man armies were against 4th ed lists. Those were more able to deal with LR based spam then lists today, as those have to be able to deal with the hordes. And since more and more lists are sacrificing some of their anti tank for more anti horde, you can get by easily with the LR spam. Blessed Hull means that Eldar/Dark Elder lose their main AT power, so LRC spam is basically a safe bet. You can't really be able to deal with both extremes of lists, 3-4 Av14 tanks and 180 boyz? Dealing with both is hell, and very very hard to do even decently.

The problem is that all I need to do is eliminate the serpent wraithguard units. The rest will (or should) die to my command squad and other units. Beating wraitguard is surprisingly easy for an army that has Preferred enemy.

I still say a melta weapon is better vs. raiders. The +1 is just too good. Although with enough wraithguard shots, a raider should die. The problem is that if I rush that center, and assault all of it, you will not have enough wraithguard left. Templar command squads are a dangerous unit.

Capt K

Flavius Infernus wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:Like I said before, only if they are mounting their wraithguard in serpents. Otherwise they will have a hard time of it. Just ask the Iyanden player I faced down with my 3 landraider Templar army in this past weekends 40k Radio RTT. You will still need at least one unit of Fire Dragons IMHO...although with a Pike on the exarch instead of a flamer. Better reach without risking your unit too much and hits on a 2+

Capt K

Actually I was thinking walk 2 full-size troop units and mount one or two 5-wraith elite units. Press the center with the big units and chase down the outriders with the mounted guys.

I haven't actually run the numbers on mounted wraithguard versus fire dragons yet though. I mean, obviously the FDs would get more penetrating hits, but equally obviously the wraithguard are more likely to hang around long enough to get shots at a second or third target in subsequent turns.

Stelek wrote:Not sure if Ravenwing is really a contender army.

Armored company has serious issues (like 2/3 of the missions are bad mamba jamas for them).

Not disagreeing that they can kill LR, but being able to kill LR -and- the other armies is the real issue I am trying to raise.

That wasn't the original post however. Just throwing out, most tourneys don't allow them regardless.