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I'm just going to explain to you guys why the ork codex seems so strong right now and is consistantly winning tournements. Or at least my take on why it's happening. Now the ork codex before it's current incarnation was almost 10 years old. In that time we had an expansion list in the Armageddon book and clan lists. Now no one on earth would ever say the old standard ork codex was broken. Most people laughed at it and it was never considered a contender in tournements yet certain people (myself included) continued to play our ork armies. We had a brief moment with the cult of speed being a power list and also certain clan lists could be successfully played but over the course of 10 years the ork codex was a sort of joke.

It stayed a joke for 2 editions of the game. But Ork players still played their orks, for years, and many came to have semi-successful records with them. I managed to win probably around 60-70% of my tournement games with orks before the new codex.

Now comes the new codex. Most of the function of the units in the ork army stay the same but get cheaper. We get new units, lower points, better gear and rules to sharpen the blade. Now you have a lot of players who spent years knowing their army and learning to win at a set point value all of a sudden their list is literally 150-200 points light at 1850. All those units we used got better and cheaper. I don't see it as a shock that orks are winning. A lot of the ork generals out there are probably some of the best generals simply due to time spent knowing their army intimately. Anyone that spent that much time making a majorly underperforming codex win is gonna smoke most people when handed a better tool.

Now not everyone has endured with the orks for the run. And those players will drop orks again as soon as people learn to play against high model count armies again. That's the other thing that makes Orks so "good". People's inexperience playing against them. All you used to see was MEQ. I remember playing a GT 5 years ago and not drawing a single non-sm or csm player. Not one in 6 games. The gaming system is changing to make all armies viable and if your not adjusting with it don't blame it on a codex.

I love orks, but i can also pound on orks. I'm just very tired of hearing them touted as a broken codex when most people don't realize what the codex is or some of the underlying reasons for why they are winning. I don't know the guys that won Vegas or Chicago w/orks and it's possible they jus started playing orks. If thats the case then maybe my view is wrong.

End Rant

I play Tau, Dark eldar, Inquisition. When I want to win, (see Ard boyz) I borrow a friend's Orks. I don't play them any other time; I don't really do practice games with them. I just slap a list together of the dirtiest undercosted overpowered garbage and go collect my trophy (hooray). Outside of ard'boyz, I'll bring my Tau or Dark Eldar to a tournament or GT and really struggle to pull off a minor win vs. some 200 model horde with 3 turns to play in a 2 hour timed game.

I could be the outlier in the equation, but I think orks are so good because nearly any unit they can field will outperform the equivalent points of any other unit with a similar task in another army.

I think you hit it with the 200 models 4 turns issue. I think most other armies have a much better chance when there are no time limits and they get to play the whole game and not just half of it.

That said, I also play orks. But I'll never field a single loota. Horde is just not my style, no vehicles = no fun in my book.

Didn't Phil Kelly (or one of the other designers) admit part of the point reduction was to turn the meta-game on its ear? Why are anti-MEQ lists so good at tournies? There's so many of them, so it's a good chance that at least 2/3 games will be MEQs. As people learn the fifth edition metagame, and start taking more ignore-cover-save weapons, Orks will come down. They're relatively new, powerful, and fifth is still new. Plus, as C99 has said, tournies are still using 4ed terrain, there's very little 'blocking LOS completely' terrain, so lootas are very effective right now. The thought of dakka being filled with 'anti-OrkEQ' talk brings a tear to my eye..........

dietrich wrote:Didn't Phil Kelly (or one of the other designers) admit part of the point reduction was to turn the meta-game on its ear? Why are anti-MEQ lists so good at tournies? There's so many of them, so it's a good chance that at least 2/3 games will be MEQs. As people learn the fifth edition metagame, and start taking more ignore-cover-save weapons, Orks will come down. They're relatively new, powerful, and fifth is still new. Plus, as C99 has said, tournies are still using 4ed terrain, there's very little 'blocking LOS completely' terrain, so lootas are very effective right now. The thought of dakka being filled with 'anti-OrkEQ' talk brings a tear to my eye..........

I spoke to Phil at Baltimore GD this year about what he did with Orks and that's pretty much what he said about them being so cheap right now - because all they saw were small model count elite armies. They wanted the horde to be viable.

@Moz

How are your Tau equipped? Is there a single flamer in your list? Do you run 2 hammerheads? Or best yet what is the loadout on your crisis teams?

As for dark eldar they are an army in so much need of work that they have replaced the lasat ork codex in the bottom of the lists. They are one of only 2 armies out that don't have flamer template weapons. They are going to lose more and more until the new codex is released due to the shift in "meta-game" that 40k is currently undergoing.

As for 'Ard Boyz, it's the time limit that slows most people but with that many models, unless your good and practice, you shouldn't be pulling big wins and ergo won't win anything overall at 'Ard Boyz.

Besides, Ard Boyz is one tournement a year and the 1750-1850 is the rest of the year. At that level yes you can still cram 200 models into an ork army admittedly but again, unless your playing fast and finishing games (or at least finishing 4 turns) your never gonna win big enough for best general (which is what determines if a codex is broken if you really think about it).

Oh, and Orks win gt's because generally, ork players are fun to play against in general. They have generally have lavished that amount of attention on an army that most people don't put into a 50 model army, let alone 200 and they pull off ok battle scores to top it off.

Remember that GT's are about half soft scores (maybe 40% it's been a while since i really looked, i go to drink and roll dice). So it's the player not the army in this instance.

That's my point by the way. It's like any other list in that the person makes the list. And luck of the draw at the tourney.

The game is shifting, shift with it. Large ork units are actually more likely to take more damage from combat than shooting in the new rules. Don't shoot 30 orks, shoot 5-7 orks, then hit them over the head and they start dying like undead in fantasy. God bless you 'No Retreat'!

Vegas was Marc Parker's 6th GT win and 3rd using Orks. Thats an Ork win in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. I think his success supports your argument.

Neil who won Chi Town has also been playing Orks for years, won the Adepticon Invitaional with them and is a close gaming buddy of Marc's. So he also supports that argument.

@Darkness

Thanks, I figured it was the case but i wasn't sure so had to hold back in stating it was the case. Down that path leads....darkness?

It is not the codex but the player I am thinking. Certainly a good player can make every codex work for him, certainly in my area the ork players, play orks for the coversion possibilities and are not tactically very good players. They usually get rolled every game buy the experienced players but they certainly do have beautiful looking armies.

One of the biggest factors is that you have some of the best players playing them, who could probably win with most armies tuned and tested to that extent, coupled with the time factor.

The time factor is massive... the opponent is forced to rush to try get those extra turns in, it hugely increases the chance for mistakes, and puts the ball very firmly in the ork players court. It's something noone is used to and changes the game drastically.

Hulksmash wrote:@Moz

How are your Tau equipped? Is there a single flamer in your list? Do you run 2 hammerheads? Or best yet what is the loadout on your crisis teams?

As for dark eldar they are an army in so much need of work that they have replaced the lasat ork codex in the bottom of the lists. They are one of only 2 armies out that don't have flamer template weapons. They are going to lose more and more until the new codex is released due to the shift in "meta-game" that 40k is currently undergoing.

Well tau for instance (which I've been playing for 6 years) I'm known to run triple HH, and 3 x 3 crisis suits with MP + Dual flamer. Played to completion I believe that I could wipe any horde ork list out eventually with this, but with the game ending on turn 3-4 and objectives essentially being Alpha win conditions, it's a bad situation gone worse.

Dark eldar have one of the best flamers in the game (just behind wind of chaos & new redeemer), and can put 6 of them in a squad together. Their issue is more along the lines of KP (aforementioned flamers are on individual ICs), otherwise it's a fantastic army. Of course, when one raider is yielding the same KPs as 30 boyz, the scale is tipped in favor of the greenies. Agree that they just need a new codex, it could be competitive as exactly the one they have now though with one small entry under Raiders: "Raiders do not yield killpoints when destroyed".

In the meantime, I'm building an ork army of my own to play. 22 models at 1500 though, it's not your Mom & Dad's GT winning orks.

As an Ork Player for 9 years now, I have to say that the New Codex is a breath of fresh air and well deserved. My Warboss got instakilled in the old edition more times than I can count - that was SO WRONG but the Benevolent Game Gods at GW heard our plea and make the Warboss BEEFIER. Also, we were getting smoked down in droves from a distance by chickeny armies who didn't want to fight toe-to-toe like ORKS. Not anymore - with running back in the game and with all the great new Ork Units like Lootas, opponents who love trying these sneaky git tactics are gonna get SPANKED but HARD. No more dealing with the Orks by NOT dealing with them. You face them or you lose! And just because you have long range weapons no longer means that the Orks can't fight back. Oh no. Orks have their share of Template Weaponry, too.

Are Orks powerful? Ah yes they are! And they should be! Orks are the primordial enemy of all humankind. It's time the Oomies had thier turn to quake in fear and tremble.

WAAGGGHHH!