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As a relatively dedicated Chaos player (I'm too cheap to buy/build another army) how does the chaos codex stack up against the new SM codex? What becomes more/less effective and what beardy SM builds do I need to watch out for?

That's a tricky question.

If you bring a vindicator, for example, and so does the marine player, you're going to be down 10 points, and he's going to get a free super-dozer blade as well. There are a number of entries where the marines will win against equal, or near-equal chaos equivalents.

So, clearly, you can't just take spiky versions of normal marine stuff and expect to win, as you'll probably be down a unit.

This means you have to utilize the options that make chaos different than just being spiky marines.

What are they?

HQs

Daemon Princes, of any mark, are generally a good buy for the points (I think). Obviously, Lash of Submission is broken too.

Sorcerors versus Librarians: They get a psychic hood, we get better stats and an inv. save. We have the most broken psychic power, but if you're not using Lash, I think the choice of powers is pretty much a push.

Lords versus Masters:
THe Captain is just better than the unmarked lord. Their stats are a wash, but the captain gets a 4+ inv. to the Lord's 5+. So, again, trick out the chaos-specific gear if you want to win this matchup head-to-head.

Elites:

Marines pretty much win this section. Possessed and dreads aren't competitive, their terminators are slightly better, and have better options for both CC (storm shields) and shooting (missile launchers and assault cannons compared to reaper autocannons).

The one thing that might work in this section is chosen, but make sure you have a role for them to perform.

Troops
This is where chaos shines. Avoid generic chaos marines, as they pale in comparison to an equal point value of tactical marines. Focus on cult marines, which are all equivalent to loyalist elite picks.

Specific choices:
Obviously plague marines are great objective holders. Noise marines have two AP3 weapons (doom sirens and blastmasters), both of which can take out multiple MEQs at once, and strike before loyalists in combat. Thousand Suns are obviously marine killers too.

Fast Attack
Again, if you're just looking for the matchups against loyalists, this might not be the best place to look. They get assault marines for 2 points less per model than we get raptors (essentially the same), and bikers for a whopping 8 points less per model. If you're going to take one of these units, make sure you take some mark that will make up for this loss of base effectiveness.

Heavy Support
Again, we pay more for the things that are equivalent; Havoks cost more than devastators, their vindicators and predators are cheaper than ours.

That leaves;
Obliterators, which work really well against marines, having both the option to fire plasma cannons against their infantry and lascannons (or multimeltas, or whatever) against their tanks. This is, again, one of the units that makes chaos different from just more-expensive-spiky-marines.

Land Raiders;
Theirs are better, but cost more. And, depending how you use it, you can avoid some of the drawbacks. A possessed land raider is pretty much firing every turn. And, as a transport to get, say, a unit of khorne berserkers into their lines, you won't do better. These are just good overall in 5th ed.

Defilers:
I hate the model (looks great from the legs down, but they just stuck a box on top of the legs), so I'll probably never have one, but a 72", AP3 battle cannon is one of those things that scares marine players. They don't really have an equivalent to this. If you want to engage in a long-range firefight, this is the tool for the job.


That's my take on the comparisons anyhow.

Chaos space marines are not spiky marines. Thats akin to saying that dark eldar are just spiky eldar. The forces play very differently, and have a very different selection of units. Chaos and marines may have some things in common, but their different playstyles regardless of unit choice makes up for it. Regular marines are jack of all trade units with squad and vehicle specific weapon upgrades that mark their specialty. Chaos squads and vehicles for the most part have a job and spec for it very well (The troop comparisons are the most illustrative, though the HQ and elite options differ as well).

If you want to do well against loyalist marines with chaos then you need to combat the best options for loyalists. The Ironclad and the Land Raider are very good options for loyalists. Maybe not in tandom, but you are bound to see at least one of those choices in most loyalist lists. I would heavily consider taking 2 meltaguns in as many troop squads as you can. Meltaguns on Raptors and Bikes would be good to. Thousand Sons can be a good counter to the 1st turn drop podding Sternguard unit. Obliterators are money for any list and Winged Daemon Princes are nice versus any marine list.

You will have a big problem in a mixed field if you gear all up for marines and get hosed by Horde lists. Keeping a good balance of anti-marine and anti-horde is the best bet. Unfortunately, IMHO, loyalist marines are in a much better position to offer very good anti-meq and anti-horde all from the same list.

The main problem for CSM for SM is that there are a variety of SM builds that are potentially lethal but at least annoying to have to prepare for, in my opinion.

Army number one to look out for, any SM army with a Librarian with Infinity Gate. Reason: negates plague marine ability to tarpit. Enemy will bail out of combat, then shoot you from range after he lands.

Army number two: any army with a Psychic Hood Reason: Negates Slaneesh Lash. Worse with the older codexes, and BT and DA are still around, I'd have to check their psychic hood descriptions.

Army number 3: Sternguard variants. Reason: Have AP3 Rapid fire weapons and combi melta guns (do the AP 3 weapons deny FNP to Plague Marines-they might.....). Also have Drop Pod delivery system with guarenteed turn one arrive, along with usual transport vehicles.

Don't start anything on the board if the enemy has first move and 2 Drop Pods of Stenguard coming in PLEASE.....(and there is a special SM character that gets two seize initiative rolls....)

Army number 4: Landraider Spam. Reason: They're hard to kill to begin with, but they have Redeemer variant which has AP3 flamers of course. Disgorged Terminator Assault squads have advantage over cult marine squads that can cost 400 points each! His POTMS enables two weapons to fire at Combat speed and one at cruising speed. His tanks can have multimeltas. You only get a combi-weapon.

Watch the threat range on his multimelta armed landraider if you have a landraider on the board....

Army number 5: Long Range Artillery Spam. Haven't seen anyone propose a maxed out list along these lines, 3 Thunderfire Cannons firing 4 60 inch strength 6 blasts each and 2 Masters of the Forge on Bikes firing 72 inch strength 10 AP1 blasts. Heck, add in a character or two with Orbital bombardment as well. Have to find a way to defend them however. Same idea as Whirlwind spam Reason: The board is big.

At least if you stay spread out then the small blasts can only hit 1 marine a turn.....Seem like another reason to me to stay out of the Rhinos.

Army 6: 5 or 6 Ironclad Dreadnaught assault army: Reason, armor 13.

Actually, your standard Obliterators, 2,4,6 or 9 could probably hurt this army.

Army 7: Razorback Rush, for 75 points the razorback has a TL assault cannon. Ouch. The ordinary Razorback has a TL heavy bolter for 40 points. That's actually statistically comparable hit wise with 45 points worth of Loota's. At least its only strength 5 instead of 6....

Army 8: Vanguard Variants: 2 attack base jumpback troops who can Deep Strike and charge. Imagine that they'd have to be lucky though to deep strike right into range.

Army 9: Again, haven't seen this proposed, I'd use it for fun though-LEGION OF THE DAMNED! Slow and Purposeful. Well, any Chaos Player knows what this means, a walking Lascannon or Multimelta. Yes, they only get one shot a turn (unlike your Obliterator unit which gets two for a little less in points). But, LOtD are 3+ invulnerable save as well as fearless. Heck, worthy of Chaos itself!

Army 10: Special Character enhancements. Shrike-turns ordinary SM into a form of mini-Blood Angels, Pedro Kantor-adds additional attacks in CC, Chapter Banner-more attacks, Telin-can target out your independent characters with a 36 inch rending weapon, a tank commander with BS5 (combines with the new Space Marine POTMS which will allow 2 weapons to fire at combat speed).....So, you have to be prepaed for a diverse list of threats (hopefully more players will just stick with the dual librarians.).

Oh, the other big strategic thing with Space Marines is combat squads- he can split into 5 man scoring units, Chaos can't, better hope there are not 5 objectives on the board to be seized, he'll have the edge on you.

Another Army, number 11; would be a scout army. They only need to be in 5 man squads and get a combi weapon and a heavy bolter or missile launcher. The heavy bolter can fire a hellfire shell which wounds on a 2+ and uses a small blast template. If there is cover on the board they might use camo cloaks to give a 3+ cover save, or better......if there is a tech marine to improve their cover.

By the Chaos Gods this is awful, first Lootas, and now the Space Marine ARMIES of death....

my advice from fighting CSM, surprising your enemy with a greater demon in the middle of combat is great [if your chaos].

Thousand sons are real killers having an +4* and ap3 guns they are worth there weight in gold.

lesser demons are kilers when in assualt in units bigger than 10.

That my 2 bob

I'd qualify that Squig Leader. TS are real killers if you know you are playing marines with 3+save. The problem I've had with my TS list is that even the AP3 bolter fire is insufficient to prevent Orks from getting to you, and like other less expensive marines, TS die horribly to long range Loota fire. You also have the fewest attacks of any CSM in assault.

It would take a different thread, but I see more CSM players going away from TS and towards either Khorne +Land Raider, Plague Marines (FNP nearly doubles their survivability compared to ordinary SM, so definitely worth the price), or Emperor's Children-more shots at longer range and often strike first in hand to hand-better vs. Horde compared to SM bolter.

Gives us back our two wounds for the Thousand Sons!

I am currently running a pure death guard list in my FLGS's league. I never thought they would be as effective against horde as they were in my last game. I ran down Orks just by keeping proper distance. Blight grenades really help them in receiving charges. It also makes waaaghing orks a little less scary and all subsequent rounds means they need 6s to wound. The whole time I had to keep them within 24 since my longest range weapon was a vindicator .

I haven't played against new marines but I hope they don't make playing cult lists unplayable.

All cult chaos armies have great weaknesses, but one unit of cult can be effective and not cost you against other lists. Take the Thousand Sons. One unit in a rhino can really hurt any marine infantry unit that drop pods into your lines, such as Sternguard, but one unit of Thousand Sons won't be as ineffective against Orks as 3-4 units of them would be.

The new marine dex makes taking Land Raiders much more dicey then in the past. All those Multi-Melta dreads can drop pod in to fry the LR right away. Ironclads can also drop in to meltagun a LR. If that doesn't work their seismic hammers will rip through the LR armor. The LR's twin lascannon shots are not as effective in 5th edition against the armor 13 of the Ironclad either and if the LR has a multimelta (only loyalists LR's can) it would be target number 1 for the weapon destroyed result as the dread gets the first shot in.

In fact it doesn't always need to be a dread dropping in. I'm sure sternguard will be popular dropping into the enemy lines. even if their is a sufficient counterassault unit inside the lR to take out the sternguard after they drop, killing the enemies 250pt LR on turn 1 could very well be incentive enough to sacrifice those sternguard. I would much rather have Abaddon, Berzerkers or Loyalist assault terminators walking up the board then jumping out of a moving LR and assaulting my lines.

Dear DarthDiggler,

Meltagun spam will certainly have an effect on LR. See my previous comment, PLEASE DO NOT START LANDRAIDERS ON THE BOARD AGAINST DROP POD ASSAULT.

I haven't built a 30 Chaos Terminator list yet. But I don't like having Bolter vs. having Storm Bolter, and the Black Templars still get TWO assault cannons per unit. In the presence of Sternguard, your Terminators probably have no business starting on the board either because of the combi-meltas. Walking Abbadon-haven't tried him, I'd expect people to stay away from him if they didn't have a good answer to him.

I'm not saying that CSM will be unable to win against SM, but there are obviouly a large number of SM builds which will need to be considered. That's one thing that will make playing against 'marines' difficult.

The basic principle of getting the first shot in is even more important IMO when the enemy plans on dropping 30 meltagun shots on you. Oh, there is a SM character who twin links all the meltagun shots. That's about 22 unsavable, pain feeling wounds.

ARMY 13-how could I forget, there's a SM character who allows the entire army to flank attack. Mix with any of the above 12 armies, transporting vehicles also get flank attack.

Metagame wise, one thing that the SM army is going to do is to shorten the game length in many instances. Why? Because many armies will not want to be on the board for the first turn Drop Pod Assault. Troops on both sides will then arrive piecemeal. The marine player will land some Drop Pods (half) near objectives in his rear, presumably holding his Sternguard to hit targets of opportunity. Shooting may not begin until turn 3 or 4, in a game lasting only 5 turns.....interesting.

Only in dawn of war can you choose to hold land raiders in reserve. In the other two deployment options they must start on the table or am I wrong? That means in 2/3rd of your games the land raiders start on the table. Not to comforting if you are afraid of drop podding dreads.

30 meltaguns are impressive. Considering thst the basic marine troop choice has lost the ability to field 2 meltaguns, dropping 10 marines to get one meltagun shot, even if twin linked is dubious at best. Undoubtably the best options for loyalists to drop melta's on turn 1 will be sternguard and dreadnoughts.

For sternguard the best defense, assuming an accompanying librarian with Gate of Infinity, would be thousand sons and their inferno bolts. The way to insure their mobility to get within rapid fire range is by putting them in a rhino.

For drop podding dreads the best options, besides heavy obliterators, would seem to be 2 meltaguns in troop squad. Once again a rhino would insure the mobility to get the 2 meltaguns there. a small raptor squad or bike squad with dual meltaguns would also perform this function well.

Chaos termies with combi-meltas can also be a possible source of anti-ironclad/land raider. However they don't hold objectives and can get cost prohibitive when you factor in needing oblits, cult marines and basic marines.

I don't think there is reason to fear the first turn drop pods from marines if you have prepared for them. I do admit it can be problematic to over compensate with meltas and get beaten by hordes. So far I have suggested double melta troops. One thousand sins squad in rhino, oblits and maybe a fast attack choice with 2 meltas. The troops can serve double duty against hordes by including the icon of khorne. This give basic csm's 3 attacks and 4 on the charge in HtH. It appears chaos won't be able to shoot the ork mobs dead so they will need to soften the mobs up a little and beat them in assaults. A possible csm list, which hopes to defend against the most extreme loyalist builds and still stand a chance against horde lists might look like this.

Hq - Daemon prince, wings, lash

Tr- 10 csm, 2 meltaguns, icon of khorne, rhino
Tr- 10 csm, 2 meltaguns, icon of khorne, rhino
Tr - 9 thousand sons, sorcerer, doombolt, rhino
Tr - 9 plague marines, 2 meltaguns, rhino

Fa - 5 raptors, 2 meltaguns

Hv - 2 oblits
Hv - 2 oblits
Hv - 2 oblits

This is by no means a time tested list. I just came up with it off the top of my head, but it seems to satisfy a few loyalist build fears and still pack a little punch against horde lists.

Lash Prince, Plague Marines, and Oblits are all solid units that Marines don't counter very easily. Land Raiders with khorne berzerkers also comes to mind as a capable assault force.

Darthdiggler, you may always choose to hold any unit you wish in Reserve in missions that use the Reserves rule (ie all of them). Hence choosing to start units off the table.

sourclams wrote:Lash Prince, Plague Marines, and Oblits are all solid units that Marines don't counter very easily. Land Raiders with khorne berzerkers also comes to mind as a capable assault force.

So basically, the units everyone uses already in tournament play. Why change what isn't broken?

My experience is that Marines (at least Blood Angels) counter Daemon Princes, Plague Marines, and Obliterators quite easily thanks to Plasma Cannon, Plasma Guns, and even Missile Launchers in a pinch.

Nurglitch wrote:My experience is that Marines (at least Blood Angels) counter Daemon Princes, Plague Marines, and Obliterators quite easily thanks to Plasma Cannon, Plasma Guns, and even Missile Launchers in a pinch.

When they don't have cover saves, I guess. Because nowadays it seems harder than in 4th to neutralize them this way

I have been educated on the Reserve rule. Thanks. I want to try and take advantage of this rule since it's in each scenario. It can help negate who goes first. Very interesting.

It seems easier to me. Daemon Princes rarely get cover, thanks to their size, and they're pretty fragile if you shoot at them enough (all those extra bolters in the Devastator squad come in handy).

Plague Marines getting a 4+ cover save is better than getting a 5+ cover save and their 4+ Feel No Pain roll on what their cover saves don't cover. And you're more likely to score multiple hits on Obliterators with Plasma Cannons these days, now that all models touching the template count as hits. Sometimes I wonder not only about the boards that people are playing on, but their order of fire, since a clever player can order fire so that units will be unable to hide behind other units.

A Venerable Dreadnought in a Drop Pod armed with a Plasma Cannon seems almost idea for dealing with Plague Marines and Obliterators, thanks to the combination of blast, AP2, BS5, WS5, I4 and Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon.

Why wouldn't you get cover saves with you daemon prince? If you aren't using vehicles to screen him then you'd not be playing competatively.

Depending on your Daemon Prince model a rhino will definitely cover 4/5th of him. Landraider covers 100% of the model. Leaving your DP unscreened against deepstrike or reserves when you know they are coming is a mistake.

Oh and Drop podding a vehicle next to guys armed with meltaguns is not smart. If you are lucky you'll get 4 plague marines or so with your plasma cannon. Then die next turn. Your CC prowess won't come into it.

BeefyG:

Yeah, it's a skill to be able to shield Daemon Princes with vehicles, but countering that shielding is also a skill, particularly if you have hills on which you can set up your Devastators, or if you drop them behind your enemy. The fact is that if your Daemon Prince can shoot at the enemy, the enemy will be able to shoot at him.

Leaving your enemy's Daemon Prince vehicles to cower behind can also be considered grounds for failure as a competitive player. Similarly, considering units as atomic pieces and not as part of a greater whole also grounds for failure as a skilled player. Or not considering range.

A Dreadnought, for example, can disembark from its pod 13" behind the Plague Marines, and fire its Plasma Cannon into them, and then follow up in the next turn with an assault. That can be combined with rolling a Land Raider up in front of the unit. The unit can only attack one. Even better, land the Dreadnought and a unit of Vanguard. The Dreadnought chews up the Plague Marines with its Plasma Cannon, and the Vanguard follow up with their Power Weapons, and together they mop up the Plague Marines in turn afterwards.

Alternately, the Dreadnought can land 19" inches away from the Plague Marines and enjoy immunity to their weapons for the turn it would take them to move into range. Of course, if the Plague Marines run to move into range in a single turn, then they waste their firepower on any other unit. The Dreadnought doesn't even need to let them move into range, if they're on foot.

Basically it boils down to the fact that Space Marines can bring enough S7+ AP2 weapons to make sure that the Chaos Marine player wastes points on units that depend on high toughness, feel no pain, etc. Or they can just pile in with Power Weapons. A unit of Assault Terminators is perfect for squishing Plague Marines.

Plasma Cannons all the way.

Nurglitch wrote:It seems easier to me. Daemon Princes rarely get cover, thanks to their size, and they're pretty fragile if you shoot at them enough (all those extra bolters in the Devastator squad come in handy).

Plague Marines getting a 4+ cover save is better than getting a 5+ cover save and their 4+ Feel No Pain roll on what their cover saves don't cover. And you're more likely to score multiple hits on Obliterators with Plasma Cannons these days, now that all models touching the template count as hits. Sometimes I wonder not only about the boards that people are playing on, but their order of fire, since a clever player can order fire so that units will be unable to hide behind other units.

A Venerable Dreadnought in a Drop Pod armed with a Plasma Cannon seems almost idea for dealing with Plague Marines and Obliterators, thanks to the combination of blast, AP2, BS5, WS5, I4 and Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon.

You are right. I dont know what was I thinking

"A Dreadnought, for example, can"...never charge your plague marines unless you want it to, or if you take the option of using their melta guns. Sure you can out range them...but they can move out of LOS (unless you are playing on a sucky 4th ed board) or spread out and use cover to minimise your effect.

I agree with your principle of using a plasma cannon to deal with FNP units...but totally disagree with the effectiveness of 1 small blast template that will most likely scatter, averaging 1 or 2 kills. If the player is *Competative* as you put it why would he put it on the dreadnought?

"Similarly, considering units as atomic pieces and not as part of a greater whole also grounds for failure as a skilled player"

I beg your pardon but it was your statement about this dreadnought being singularly able to deal with the threat that caused me to respond. Don't talk down to me whilst standing on a sugar platform. Of course we are talking about units roles "In a whole army", any nubsticle knows that. I'm merely countering your point that the dreadnought is a "good" option as you proposed.

Those Obliterators you have also referenced (in a vaccum) will eat your dreadnought the vast majority of games regardless of the range.

Back on topic:
Space marines have many ways of dealing with plague marines. Plasma Cannon Devs (But then what to do with land raiders), Van Guard, commanders orbital strike etc...but it will generally be a mass combined effort to take out a squad in a turn.

Oh I forgot to respond to the initial point.

Your DP works in conjuction with another unit in your army...ie thousand sons. You are not blocking your field of view (unless there are no viable targets) you are using the landraider to leave a single target visible (usually on the fringes) lash it into rapid fire range of the thousand sons and wipe out...its not that hard to figure out.

In regards to the rhino...A hill isn't very likely to help with the devestators shooting the DP. The DP will still have more than half of his body covered by the rhino if you are using it to block LOS by having it basically base to base. I can't believe I'm having to say that...can someone take a couple of photo's and convince the man?

BeefG:

Oh, don't worry, your thoughtful and articulate responses have convinced me where my own experience has failed.

Thanks!

Currently most of my army's punch comes in the form of the 9 oblits I have and the 2 expensive unit of raptors that bounce along the flanks eating units. Aside from those guys my troops are hideously underwhelming. I've lost a couple objective games now from a LR (or two) blowing my plague marines off of objectives. Dunno if I should change out the raptors for termies though since both die under all but the gentlest SM attention but raptors move faster.