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So we have heard a large amount of thoughts on the new sternguard but what about their vanguard buddies?
Are they worth it?
What armies do they shine against?Who do they die against? What are some of their uses and what armie types would go with them?

Basically, what are people's thoughts on this new assault unit?

It would be nicer/fluffier if we could take them as elites

They're best used in small units with Power Weapons and the Sergeant having a Relic Blade.
Comes out to about 250 points for 4 guys with Power Weapons and a relic Blade.

Use them with First turn Locator beacons on your drop pods. Adding Pedro in there within 12 is kind of neat.


They're very expensive and need to absolutely be used to only back up other units and not assault on their own or they get owned.


I used a 5 man squad with some success but otherwise I am not impressed with them. Theyre Marines 50 point Marines.

If they only autocame with Jump packs like normal Assault marines they would be awesome, otherwise they are to expensive.

So why not take them without all the power weapons
then you are only paying 11 points (above the cost of assault marines) for +1 attack, the ability to assault after deep striking and the ability to take a plethera of options including the melta bombs that use to belong to said assault marines.

They're just not really cost effective at all. Even with the super awesome get to assault on deepstrike ( which can kill them, if they don't have a locator beacon, put them out of charge range and they die.)

You absolutely need a delivery system for them and possibly a honeypot like a Drop pod. So that is another point investment just to get them into the battle.


That unit is 350 points even in 2000 points over 10 percent of your army is tied up in those 10 models, who are just basic marines with a extra attack.


Against other assaultie armies such as Orks, Tyranids etc.. They get owned.


They're fun for back up; a really great heavy hitting unit that can hop down out of the sky on top of a objective to back up a Tactical or whatever.

On their own they suck.

Hollismason wrote:They're best used in small units with Power Weapons and the Sergeant having a Relic Blade.

God no, wrong, just no. Assault troops are never, ever "best used in small units". If you're going to take a vanguard squad, max it out. Find the points for it. If need be, short yourself on special weapons.

I really don't think they're worth their points cost. First of all you have to pay for the jump packs. Secondly, they come as fast attack and not as elites. Last game I played against Iyanden who basically fielded an erase gun list. and they were utterly destroyed. They didn't even make it into combat. But I think the problem was more list make-ups than anything. I had built a close combatty army that tried to go up against an army with 3 Wraithlords and 30 wraithguard.

Definitely not worth the points cost.

Only real application would be: Deploy with Kayvan Shrike ala Infiltration at 18" out, then jump, run and assault someone on turn 1, utterly crushing them...
Then die as your opponent's entire remaining army shoots the crap outta you.

That's about it.

i'd just use assult marines, cheaper to max out and do the job just as well

So it seems that people summarily dismiss them
sad for a unit with such cool looking models

10 Vanguard, jump packs, Sergeant with Fist and melta bombs is 340 points.
10 Assault Marines, Sergeant with Fist and melta bombs is 220 points.

If you give in to giving the Vanguard more power weapons etc., it gets even more expensive yet its the real benefit Vanguard have over regular assault marines. Heroic intervention is a fairly risky move unless there's a locator beacon handy. Once your opponent sees you have a Vanguard squad in reserve most should avoid drop pod locators leaving it up to scout bikers, if this is worth it or not really depends on what the rest of your army is doing.

So if the jump pack version is over priced what about just having them arrive in a pod on foot? The issue here is that Assault terminators can fill the role for cheaper and better. Since even with the pack off a Vanguard is more expensive than a regular assault marine with a pack lets compare a decked out squad of 5 to Assault terminators.

5 Assault Terminators are 200, and can have lightning claws or thunder hammer and storm shields. (lets compare 3 LC, 2 TH, SS a popular mix)
5 Vanguard with 3 LC, 2 TH and SS (Sergeant has TH so its a lil cheaper.) + Drop pod so they can deep strike 325 points.

So 125 points more with a 3+ armor save that can sweeping advance or the Assault terminators with a 2+ save and 5+ invuln on the LC termies. I know which I'm taking (plus I love the way LC termies look ).

10 Vanguard, jump packs, Sergeant with Fist and melta bombs is 340 points.

points heavy 0_o
just a quick comparison to a good assult unit in daemons.

8 Bloodcrushers - 320 points
WS5, S5, T5, W2, A3, power weapons, 3+ save with a 5+ inv save, furious charge.

so for 20 less points you get a unit with more wounds, higher S and T, and alot more, all have power weapons.
have an Inv save, and look better

You can't compare units across codexes. Yes, Bloodcrushers are great. Now let those respective units assault a Dreadnought. The Vanguard vets will drag it down, the Crushers will be... crushed. Eventually. Clearly, Vanguard are better than Bloodcrushers...?

Now, the real problem with Vanguard is that their jump packs are freaking expensive. Ten points per model, even with HI, is grossly overpriced. When you dump the packs, they become more reasonable and you have points to spare for special weapons, which is where they really shine.

So, how to deliver them to combat? Landraider.

clams, whats the rear armour of a dread?
with furious charge crushers get S6 on the charge.
meaning they ca take out a dread, and with that many attacks (4 each on the charge) it should be dead befor it can attck back.

and on a side note: you say i can compare across dex's, yet you have just done the same thing.

and i agree on that point, they are very expnsive, and its a shame since the models look great
if usng a raider to deliver them might aswell go with the redeemer for extra punch.

just a quick comparison to a good assult unit in daemons.

8 Bloodcrushers - 320 points

Of course you forget the 340 point vanguard are much faster, and can also choose not to deepstrike. Not to mention the flexible weapon choices. Bloodcrusher might be better but they are still a poor comparison.

A better comparison is another jumppack unit on steroids, of which there's only Blood Angel VAS -- which are better due to lower cost and access to special weaponry.

clams, whats the rear armour of a dread?

And that is relevant why? 8 Bloodcrushers charge a dread, they hit front armor, average 2 glances and if they are lucky do something worthwhile. And an iron clad just laughs at the brass beast riders.

When you dump the packs, they become more reasonable and you have points to spare for special weapons, which is where they really shine.

I tend to disagree here cause you have better choices for a foot assault unit -- terminators and honorgaurd. If you aren't using HI, might as well take something else. The only possible exception is if you aren't taking a Master and you've also maxed your elites with other stuff (but in that case, points are probably already to limited to even look at vanguard)

Basicaly as I see it, if you are gonna bother taking Vanguard, they should have the jumpacks, their must be beacons in the army (preferably the beacons are pulling double duty for other stuff) and they should be 10 man squads (allows flexibility). This really limits when they should be used but there's simply better options in any other case.

It's pretty much pointless to take Vanguard; theyre just to prohibitively expensive and for the same points you could use up one heavy support slot buy a tank and get honour guard.

10 man squad of Vanguard w/ Jump Packs ; powerweapons. 40 attacks on the charge.
485 points.

or

Redeemer + multi Melta + xtra armour 265


Honour guard
6 man squad with Chapter Banner. 245 points

2+ Armour Save ; Powerweapon; 25 Attacks on a charge + 6 from the Champion.

or

10 man honour guard all with power weapons company Standard + Rhino for 50 attacks on charge.

395

I think i know what I would take.

sourclams wrote:You can't compare units across codexes. Yes, Bloodcrushers are great. Now let those respective units assault a Dreadnought. The Vanguard vets will drag it down, the Crushers will be... crushed. Eventually. Clearly, Vanguard are better than Bloodcrushers...?

Now, the real problem with Vanguard is that their jump packs are freaking expensive. Ten points per model, even with HI, is grossly overpriced. When you dump the packs, they become more reasonable and you have points to spare for special weapons, which is where they really shine.

So, how to deliver them to combat? Landraider.

you might as well take sternguard

JD21290 wrote:clams, whats the rear armour of a dread?
with furious charge crushers get S6 on the charge.
meaning they ca take out a dread, and with that many attacks (4 each on the charge) it should be dead befor it can attck back.

You hit walkers on front armor, genius. And since you can't charge on the turn you deep strike, the dreadnought will be charging *you*. Regardless, this exchange is very, very stupid.

It would be nicer/fluffier if we could take them as elites

I keep hearing this sentiment repeated and I don't understand it at all. The elite section of a Marine list already has so much competition with terminators, dreadnoughts, and sternguard that you'd want to lump even *more* stuff into there? It's a bargain that we get Vanguard can be taken as a fast choice. If Vanguard were elites, nobody would ever field them, ever.

I think we are all agreed that vanguard without the jump packs are not worth it. There are to many better buys.

But do you not think that the extra attack and the heroic intervention are worth 11 points

Compare them to raptors (probabally the best comparison out there). 10 raptors can take the icon of khorn for what?40 or so pts.
That means the heroic intervention is only costing you arround 6 points per guy. Is that, plus all their options not worth it?

Is that, plus all their options not worth it?

Those options are pretty pricy on a basic MEq model. At most 4 power weapons (or maybe 2-3 fists or mix thereof) in a 10 man squad is feasible. Could be an argument for taking even less, that way the unit is less likely to wipe on the assault and end up stranded.

Skip the plasma pistols (can't shoot during HI and the cost is silly) and melta bombs (5 points for em is just not worth it when they get kraks for free).

In a list made to take advantage of HI I think they can work. Otherwise that is 6 points apeice you are paying that is probably going to waste.
Pretty much means a drop pod list IMHO. Could try using scout bikes as delivery too I guess. Just taking them in any old list is doomed to failure.

Example rough draft 2k list

Tigerius (gives rerolls to reserve rolls, nice for speeding up or delaying arrival as needed)

Ironclad, MG/hvy flamer, drop pod w/ beacon
Ironclad, MG/hvy flamer, drop pod w/ beacon

10 man Tactical, Flamer, MM, combi-flamer, powerweapon, drop pod w/ beacon (tiggy in here)
10 man Tactical, MG/MM, drop pod
10 man Tactical, MG/MM, drop pod

10 man Vangaurd, 2 PWs, Powerfist
10 man Vangaurd, 2 PWs, Powerfist

Could go with sternguard unit instead of ironclads (i like the ironclads cause they get you the 5th pod that gets you 3 pods on turn 1). Could also focus less on using vanguard -- take only one squad and add whatever floats your boat.

HTH