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Hi, i was thumbing through my marine dex a while ago and have been looking at the thunderfire cannons, looking at the way they work, especially with the tremor shot they can stop a horde army (or at least a portion of it from moving so quickly at you) and shred some of those annoying units like eldar pathfinders getting thier 2+ cover save, not to mention you get a free bolster defences from the techmarine too all for 100pts which isnt really that costly, so i put it to you guys can you put thunderfire cannons in a competitive list and if so, how would you do it?

The same you would normally.

I wouldent see a problem in using them.

As long as you ask your opponant if he will allow you to use them.

Thats pretty much how it works, 2 people agreeing on stuff <_<

Actually, you don't have to let your opponent give his permission on something that is legal.

My idea was to take 2 thuderfires in drop pods, and have 2 groups of 1 squad of snipers, and one squad of marines. You take Sicarius so that one Tac squad infiltrates, and one drops in.

These groups land on objectives and start hammering. Also take a squad of sternguard with lots of meltas, and Tigurius.

There, you've got
2 squads of anti MC (scouts with snipers)
4 squads that are good vs horde, and ok vs light tanks. (marines and thunderfire)
1 squad that is great vs tanks and horde and MEQs that teleports around killing things.

I haven't tested it, but it seems effective.

If you havent tested it... how do you know its effective?

Anywho, looks like you made me learrn something <_<

wat.

Well, to me you are making a total commitment to winning by firepower. The one issue I have with them is 1 character dependency. So even in cover, we are talking a 3+ invulnerable and 3 wounds means I just lost a 100 point unit...

So, you need some cover for it... rhino bodies or landraiders maybe a dread or two.

With the gun being direct fire, it is limited to deployment where it has a good choice of field of fire and then I need some location that I can protect my lonely techmarine crew.

So how about...

HQ MoF w Conversion Beamer 120
Elite 5 Assault Terminators 200
Landraider Redeemer w Pintle MM 250
Troop 10 Tac + Rhino Sgt w PF, Flamer, MM 230
Troop 10 Tac + Rhino Sgt w PF, Melta, MM 230
Troop 10 Tac Plasma, Las + Razorback TL Hvy Bolter 230
Troop 10 Tac Plasma, Las + Razorback TL Hvy Bolter 230
Troop 10 Scouts w Sniper Rifle, + Hvy Bolter all with cloaks 180
Heavy Vindicator 115
Heavy Thunderfire 100
Heavy Thunderfire 100
1985

Ideally, lean the 2 thunderfires to the best corner of your table. Line up both razorbacks to form a wall on left or right side and then put the vindicator at the tip. You should be able to cut down on your enemy's view of your 2 guns and still damage the snot out of what you left exposed. The snipers form a protective line in front of the guns so that they get a 4+ cover save. With their cloaks and going to ground, you can even get them a 5+ cover save so they don't instant die on things like shuriken cannons or heavy bolters.
If you set up in a corner, you have to sweat flankers so I would dedicate one of the las/plas tacticals to hold the exposed flank.
The MOF w conversion beamer just sounded like the perfect leader for your two tech guns but you could work in a termi chaplain or the like if you prefer.

This leaves you the two rhino tacticals and the terminators in the LR to go out and touch your opponent up close and take those objectives while you have 1 other las/plas tactical that can sit on another objective.

Competitive? Maybe. Firepower or close combat? FP definitely. OTOH, I don't think eldar or tau will really appreciate you putting two vehicles into dangerous terrain or 15 lootas are really not going to like catching 8 no cover save blasts.

hmm what about in a 1500 point list, this is what me and my gaming group normally play too, i can see them being effective, and prehaps you are right with it being a total commitment to firepower, but lets not forget units such as assault marines but already i agree this is eating up loads of points already, drop pods seem like a bit of a waste of points as really you would want them shooting from turn one, unless you are talking about either a) using the pods to block LOS and make them move infront of the cannons or b) putting them in the pods for DOW scenarios were they can come on on turn one and set up in an advantageous position, i can see your point as (as much as you haven't tested it much to other peoples opinions) it seems like a pretty solid build, prehaps though the one character dependency is a problem, however having the other 1200pts worth of space marines to worry about aswell may make them effective. still interested to hear some more ideas

3x Thunderfire Cannons are only 300 points. You can easily stick them onto any 1700 point Marine list that doesn't have land raiders. Pick your favorite flavor of Marine, add 3 Thunderfires. Although they excel versus horde, you should generally be able to find a use for them.

Once again, i'm trying to fit this into a 1500 point army, not 1750 (GT size games in UK is 1500), i was thinking that they were a multipurpose unit hence why ive coined the idea of trying to fit them into a tournament list

99MDeery:

Here's my idea: Go for the assault. With three Thunderfire Cannons you'll have some serious anti-infantry firepower, but you'll need some (maybe lots) of anti-tank, and you'll need a way of stopping the Thunderfire Cannons from shattering under a stiff breeze.

Head Quarters
Space Marine Captain (185)
w/Bike, Power Sword, Combi-Melta with Auxiliary Grenade Launcher and Hellfire Rounds.

Space Marine Librarian (200)
w/Bike, Combi-Melta, Epistolary, Force Dome, Machine Curse

Elite
Venerable Dreadnought (220)
w/Extra Armour, Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher

Troops (295)
Space Marine Bike Squad
Sergeant
w/Combi-Flamethrower
Seven Space Marine Bikers
w/Two Melta Guns
One Attack Bike
w/Multi-Melta

Space Marine Bike Squad (295)
Sergeant
w/Combi-Flamethrower
Seven Space Marine Bikers
w/Two Melta Guns
One Attack Bike
w/Multi-Melta

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon (100)

Thunderfire Cannon (100)

Thunderfire Cannon (100)

Points against the Thunderfire.

First the issues of drop podding

1. It cannot move and fire as it is artillery.

2. It may not move and fire the turn it comes in from a drop pod.

3. A drop pod landing in difficult terrain treats that terrain as dangerous; however guns models that pass through difficult terrain must also make a dangerous terrain check.

Any glancing or penetrating hit destroys the model. A roll of 1 makes it suffer a immobilization.


It's just incredibly fragile, not worth it and actually semi pointless to use it in a drop pod.


It requires LOS from the crew man not the gun to fire. Move out of its arc and it is dead.

Points for it

1. Badass Model.
2. Kickass Techmarine


They could have fixed it and made it so Servitors were a retinue this would have probably alleviated it and made more models able to fire it.

hence why i was thinking without the drop pod, at the end of the day its a wonderful model and i just wanted a range of views on whether it would be viable in an army, the points against it do factor in quite heavily still keep the opinions coming in interested to hear the range of views from people

Seriously why.. just why do people think podding down TFC's is useful?

unless i missed something in the new dex, a TFC is a "heavy" weapon, so can't shoot if it lands in a pod since it counts as moving.

It's also got a SIXTY!! inch range, why would you need to pod it somewhere anyway?




@hollimason.. pods can't land in terrain, they get booted to the nearest clear space.

Mad Dok Wotnot wrote:Seriously why.. just why do people think podding down TFC's is useful?

unless i missed something in the new dex, a TFC is a "heavy" weapon, so can't shoot if it lands in a pod since it counts as moving.

It's also got a SIXTY!! inch range, why would you need to pod it somewhere anyway?




@hollimason.. pods can't land in terrain, they get booted to the nearest clear space.

Just to clarify this is not true ; they will not land in impassable terrain and troops. They can land in difficult terrain they treat it as dangerous per the deepstrike rules.

deepstrike [pg 95 , minibook] paraphrased ' Models arriving via deep strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain'

Drop Pod Space Marine Codex page 69 ' scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model'

Artillery Rules pg 55 "units are slowed by difficult terrain like infantry but gun models must also take dangerous terrain tests"


Yes, you can place a drop pod in difficult terrain ( such as a crater "ruins" depends on your board") it treats it as dangerous though. now my friends and I have been treating it that the models disembarking the drop pod have to take a test as well.


The only rules for disembarking are you cannot disembark into impassable terrain.

meh - where you put your pods aside - TFC in them is pretty pointless either way

Mad Dok Wotnot wrote:meh - where you put your pods aside - TFC in them is pretty pointless either way

Yeah it just makes it even worse than a normal unit as you got to roll for the Techmarine and the Cannon; The cannon can be immobilized and the Techmarine can die. Either way it sucks.


edit:

Although man that model is badass seriously. I think screening them with a Tactical squad would be cool. They only needed to make it so that servitors could join and operate the model then it would be a viable piece.

I have played 3 friendly games since the new dex came out and have fielded a THC in each game. It has performed extremely well (MVP in 2 of the 3 games by far).

Granted, I do not play competitive lists, but our gaming group has done a 3-game mini escalation type deal (750, 1k, 1250). All 3 of my games have been vs orks and the TFC simply murders.

I always deploy it in some sort of ruins (we generally play on cityfight type terrain) which i then bump up with the techmarines enhance cover rule.

3+ cover saves for both models. 1/3 of the time shooting will hit the techmarine who has a 2+. I was super skeptical about survivability, but with good deployments it has survived 2 of 3 games, only losing it when the techmarine was overwhelmed in an assault with silly PC nob action.

my experience so far has left me heavily biased towards the s5 ap6 no cover saves round. Orks die en mass when their KFF is no longer protecting them.

as to the model being badass, it does look fantastic, but it is hands down the worst kit i have ever assembled. the casting is horrible and the pieces barely fit together as intented.

I'm assuming by techmarines enhance cover rule, you actually mean a Master of the Forge; who has said rule?

How you are getting cover saves on that big artillery piece is beyond me--you do realize it is not an infantry model and therefore requires 50.1% cover to get any kind of save? And it cannot fire indirectly, both the gun AND the techmarine need to be able to see it's target to be able to fire?

It is not difficult to kill the artillery piece.

AKA the Thunderfire looks neat, but is in reality crap.

Face some Orks with Lootas. Advise on how badly it went when the Thunderfires get smoked immediately.

Stelek wrote:I'm assuming by techmarines enhance cover rule, you actually mean a Master of the Forge; who has said rule?

The Master of the Forge does have Bolster Defences, but so do Techmarines and Lysander.

Okay here is a thought. If you put the tech marine in front of the Thunderfire does that cover at least 50% to get the cover save?

Could you do this and still have the barrel of the gun have line of sight?

@MinMAx:

Since the techmarine needs someone (an IC) to join him so he actually gets cover...what's the point of this again?

See, the Thunderfire Cannon sucks.

No two ways about it.

You do not get cover saves for the techmarine nor the thunderfire cannon, even if the techmarine is in cover--if the thunderfire isn't (and unless you are playing wuss hammer and adding tons of LOS blocking terrain because 5th edition doesn't sit well with your army, it won't be).

So one lascannon that hits is generally going to be enough to wipe the unit out.

How's this good? Answer: It isn't. It's absolutely horrible.

Don't be a sucker and buy this model (except to convert with). It's a loser.

@Asurgradinwa:

Nope. Units cannot provide self-cover saves.

A Thunderfire Cannon gaining cover seems to me to be a similar circumstance to Hive Tyrants with their Tyrant Guard.

A Thunderfire Cannon and the Techmarine form a unit together. If half of the unit or more is in cover, the Unit gets the benefit of cover. A Techmarine in Area Terrain gets the benefit of the cover, and as he is half of the unit, the unit would gain the benefits, including the Thunderfire Cannon.

Ah but the artillery piece has it's own rules.

It's a vehicle.

Vehicles are not obscured for being inside area terrain.

So you cannot take cover saves for the vehicle.

You also cannot allocate hits, they are determined randomly.

That's 1-4 it hits the gun.

So, again, back to the lascannon:

I roll to hit. 3+.
I roll to 'randomize'.
On a 1-4, you just lost your thunderfire cannon.

If I roll a 5-6, and you roll a 1 or a 2, you just lost your thunderfire cannon (see, no crewman is left).

This is good?

In what universe.

Hollismason wrote:Points against the Thunderfire.

First the issues of drop podding

1. It cannot move and fire as it is artillery.

2. It may not move and fire the turn it comes in from a drop pod.

3. A drop pod landing in difficult terrain treats that terrain as dangerous; however guns models that pass through difficult terrain must also make a dangerous terrain check.

Any glancing or penetrating hit destroys the model. A roll of 1 makes it suffer a immobilization.


It's just incredibly fragile, not worth it and actually semi pointless to use it in a drop pod.


It requires LOS from the crew man not the gun to fire. Move out of its arc and it is dead.

Points for it

1. Badass Model.
2. Kickass Techmarine


They could have fixed it and made it so Servitors were a retinue this would have probably alleviated it and made more models able to fire it.

The really nice things about DPs is that they can't go boom when they land thanks to their fancy targeting system

Stelek wrote:Ah but the artillery piece has it's own rules.

It's a vehicle.

Vehicles are not obscured for being inside area terrain.

So you cannot take cover saves for the vehicle.

You also cannot allocate hits, they are determined randomly.

That's 1-4 it hits the gun.

So, again, back to the lascannon:

I roll to hit. 3+.
I roll to 'randomize'.
On a 1-4, you just lost your thunderfire cannon.

If I roll a 5-6, and you roll a 1 or a 2, you just lost your thunderfire cannon (see, no crewman is left).

This is good?

In what universe.

SO is there no way to use the thunderfire effectively?

Units get cover, all or nothing. By itself a Thunderfire Cannon would have not get the benefit of cover from merely being in Area Terrain. However it gets the benefit because half of it's unit, ie the Techmarine, do, and thus the Unit, including the cannon, gets cover.

Also, I don't understand how one directly attacks the cannon itself

Shrike78 wrote:Also, I don't understand how one directly attacks the cannon itself

Stelek explained it pretty clearly. Reread the section in the rulebook about artillery. When you shoot at artillery you have to roll to see if you hit the crew or the cannon.

Aduro wrote:Units get cover, all or nothing. By itself a Thunderfire Cannon would have not get the benefit of cover from merely being in Area Terrain. However it gets the benefit because half of it's unit, ie the Techmarine, do, and thus the Unit, including the cannon, gets cover.

That's wishful thinking.

Vehicles OVERRIDE the rules for cover, as CLEARLY stated in the rules.

Sorry.

The vehicle rules say it gives them the following exceptions, then goes on to list what they have to do to count as being in cover (50% ect), but it never makes an exception for the majority of their unit being in cover.