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Ok so I pretty much have my ork shooty army fleshed out, or you could say my version of the loota spam list. Its fun to play and I get to roll lots of dice. Some of the dice even hit and wound.

Normally I would jump right into another army and another list, however the ork book seems to have a variety of good builds in it. So now I am going to do an army that is going to be fun to model and play. I would have jumped to a kan heavy list, but the new BW models are coming out and they look like evil garbage trucks. Who doesn’t want to kill someone with a fleet of evil garbage trucks?

So my question is in your opinion which list is the better list? Which is going to be more fun and which is going to do better in a tourney setting? Spam kans or Spam wagons? (I know I am repeating myself, I just wanted to use the word spam kan in a post and have it make sense.)

I think you'll find the Battlewagons more fun, particularly if you wait until the new Battlewagon kit comes out. The Battlewagon has more options than the Kans, and it's a more dynamic unit.

So long as you don't want to run a shooty army with the battlewagons, you'll be fine doing that.

Exception: Running the ordnance on one can be amusing but the range means you get side shots on you all the time, which usually means you are dead.

5 BW with deff rollas and kill kannons (on 3) and or x4 rokkit launchas, 2 are ded. with nobs 2 with burna boys (with 3 rokkits each), , 1 with ard boys.(2 rokkit launchas) you should have at least 10 rokkit launchas on 4 seperate platforms (veyh/squad so you can fire at different targets, the burnas allow you to do some extra humiliation after you tank shock/kill kannon a unit or run 4 with a big mek with a KFF for survaviability, just mkae sure you deploy after tank shocking other wise your opp. will get easy hits on your rear armor

so all in all you have 28 rokkit launchas 30 burnas 19-20 ard boys 2 warbosses (or a WB and a BM) 3 kill kannons 5 deff rollas and 10-20 nobs. As opposed to 9 killa kans that do nothing and get destroyed on a 4+, unless you run the kans as part of a hoard army.

shooty armies do well with BW's just stick 15 lootas in each one and they have some serious survivability just dont forget the KFF

Stelek

When you say not shooty do you just mean not adding the kannons and stuff to the wagons? I was thinking if I build a wagon list I would run the wagons all with no weapons except the def rollers, but I was thinking putting 20 shooty boys in a few them would be a pretty good are you saying that I should only run slugga's as well? When I did a rough list I could do 2 nob squads and 3 20 man squads with 5 wagons and a KFF. Its around 1750 give or take.

I guess I am asking if the list works better to unload the troops as soon as you get to the front lines? or if you ever want to leave the troops in the vehicles? I hadn't really given it much thought yet?

HQ:

waboss - klaw, bosspole, eavy armour - 95

waboss - klaw, bosspole, eavy armour - 95

Elite:

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour - 175
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour - 175
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour, bosspole - 1780
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

Troop

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour, bosspole - 1780
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, zzap gun, deff roller - 135

5 nobz - klaw, painboy, eavy armour, bosspole - 1780
Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

10 boyz - 60
trukk, red paint job - 40

10 boyz - 60
trukk, red paint job - 40

10 gretchin - slaver - 40

Heavy:

Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

Battlewagon - 2 big shootas, killkannon - 160

total of 25 nobz, 2 warboss's, 20 boyz, 10 grots + slaver, 2 trukks and 8 battlewagons.

just one of my lists, great fun, and would look good with the new wagonz.

Edit:

designed for the nobz to stay in thier wagons at all times.

Kanz are fun though! 9 Killa Kanz and 2 Deff Dreads, backed up by a mek with a KFF, now that's an army that people don't want to see running across the board at them! Back it up with a couple units of Lootas and a few shoota boy squads, and you have the core of a fun and reasonably tough army.

Drkmorals wrote:Stelek:

When you say not shooty do you just mean not adding the kannons and stuff to the wagons? I was thinking if I build a wagon list I would run the wagons all with no weapons except the def rollers, but I was thinking putting 20 shooty boys in a few them would be a pretty good are you saying that I should only run slugga's as well? When I did a rough list I could do 2 nob squads and 3 20 man squads with 5 wagons and a KFF. Its around 1750 give or take.

I guess I am asking if the list works better to unload the troops as soon as you get to the front lines? or if you ever want to leave the troops in the vehicles? I hadn't really given it much thought yet?

I mean Battlewagons are BS2. You should always give them a pair of big shootas, not because they are good...but because for 10 points that is two weapon destroyed results you can shrug off and keep moving forward.

No weapons=immobilized when you suffer a '3' result on the table.

The best weapon for a BW is the ordnance, since it doesn't really miss.

The config you speak of was fine in 4th but with the nerf to moving 12" and firing from open-topped transports...

You have a conundrum. If you take the ordnance, you can't stick as many guys in...but you also don't want the +1 to damage tables because you are open-topped, so you put a ard case on to protect it...and then suddenly you have 12 orks which isn't very effective shooting at all, and they have to get out to fire all their guns.

So it's not horrible, but it's also not very good.

Boyz squads should always be 30 strong first, then a nob, then a power klaw, then a bosspole, then 4+ armor for the nob, then 3 weapons (big shootas IMO).

Hope that helps.

Nobs are fine units, if you want them to get the other guy nervous...put them in a BW with extra armor, a deff rolla, red paint job, and 2 big shootas. Move 13" turn 1, and on turn 2 move 13", deploy 3", fleet (using waagh) D6", and assault 6". With deployment that's 34" + D6" + 6" assault. Or a trukk, if you are brave and lucky.

tzeentchling wrote:Kanz are fun though! 9 Killa Kanz and 2 Deff Dreads, backed up by a mek with a KFF, now that's an army that people don't want to see running across the board at them! Back it up with a couple units of Lootas and a few shoota boy squads, and you have the core of a fun and reasonably tough army.

Indeed. It's a serious PITA. Grotzookas are nasty as hell.

grotzookas? The heavy 2 Blast looks nice against infantry, but the 18" range not so nice. I'd have thought rokkits (or kustom mega blastas if you play against a lot of 2+ armour) would be better in an all-comers army list.

Don't try to kill heavy tanks with Orks at range.

Doesn't work.

Lootas will take care of AV13.

AV14, your 11 dreads will kill in CC.

Or you're gonna have a bad day.

Not if you are facing Russ.

You cannot wait until klaw range, use deffkoptas and flank.

Grotzookas arent bad, but dont do anything shootas cannot do, very very nice against other orks though.

You cannot wait until klaw range, use deffkoptas and flank.

deffkopta's arent the best tank hunters, they are pretty weak and will die in combat against most things, and its not possible to keep them away from combat the whole game.
giving them a claw is a waste of points, 25 points for 3 S7 attacks on the charge.
if charged by a ironclad its game over for them.

Orlanth wrote:Not if you are facing Russ.

You cannot wait until klaw range, use deffkoptas and flank.

Grotzookas arent bad, but dont do anything shootas cannot do, very very nice against other orks though.

Russes are scary against Orks? Againt Kans? Since when?

The IG better kill all of the dreads before they arrive, or they're going to smash his lines into little bits.

Grotzookas do something shootas cannot do: They don't miss, and they are higher strength.

Very nice against everyone, actually. Lots more damage.

ok, you've convinced me, Grotzookas are another weapon option I'll magnetise for my planned 9 Kanz

If there's anything I actually fear from Orks vis a vis shooting, it's Lootas first and Kans with Grotzookas second.

After that, everything is a distant third.

Even Burnas. Gotta get to me first. Soon as Orks get drop pods, well holy watch out cheddarland we're renaming the place Orkhell. lol

stelek, where does the army ive posted on this thread come as threat level?

and grotzookanz are the bestsetup for kanz, allways fire, not bad Str, and its heavy 2 with a small blast

with dreads im tempted to either take 2x skorcha, or 2 DCCW's.

This one?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219191.page

Not very. No lootas.

Or do you mean the nob one? It's not optimized either.

i mean the one i posted on this thread.
mainly for fun, but 4 wagons with rollers tank shocking everything and 4 sat back acting as shooting platforms.

and whoneeds loota's? they dont makean ork army, another new unit that people talk about like they have allways been around :(

Well, nobz with painboyz don't either.

BW aren't shooting platforms, they are BS2 and none of yours have killkannons so....

should have gone to specsavers stelek, theres 4 with killkannons.
and 4 with deffrollers.

I think probably if I were to run 9 Kanz, I'd probably do 6 with grotzookas and 3 with kustom megablastas. One of the few places in the army where they might actually do something, and the Gets Hot rule doesn't matter.

JD21290 wrote:should have gone to specsavers stelek, theres 4 with killkannons.
and 4 with deffrollers.

I read the Codex and decided since your list was illegal, I could poke fun at it until you figured it out.

Page 98.

ok, cut out 1 killkannon and add deffroller.
that means the 3 kannons are heavy.
5 with deffroller and ive got 40 points left over.

wow, and because of this you suffered from a moment of blindness and couldnt see any kannons on the wagons?

No silly. I figured since it was a copy and paste job, you'd written down killkannon instead of just kannon.

They still can't sit back and shoot, and they get lit up on their side armor all the time.

Just like Vindicators do (ergo why Vindicators are also junk).

Exorcists can at least sit back at 48" and take hits on their front armor, so they aren't complete suck. (Close though.)

C&P list?
i made it myself while i was at work, hence the few pages of A4 paper by the comp with the list scribbled on them.

JD21290 wrote:

You cannot wait until klaw range, use deffkoptas and flank.

deffkopta's arent the best tank hunters, they are pretty weak and will die in combat against most things, and its not possible to keep them away from combat the whole game.
giving them a claw is a waste of points, 25 points for 3 S7 attacks on the charge.
if charged by a ironclad its game over for them.

1. Nothing about klaws, you use rokkits on deffkoptas.

2. What else kills Av14 frontal? Zzap guns? Shokkmeks? No use deffkoptas and flank for Av12 shots, twin linked penetrate on a 5+.

3. They dont need to be kept from combat the whole game, they kill the Russes and if they die they die.

4. If your local ork player lets an Ironclad dread catch his koptas something is very wrong. Unless some koptas were moved cklose to the dread to make a suicide shot. However as Land Raiders do not have weak sides there is little reason to do this. Besides rokkits damage Ironclads on 5's, with greater speed and range I woukld put money on the koptas to win.

1: i know, was just pointig it out.

2: rokkits dont kill AV14 frontal armour, the mobility mixed with rokkitz can though, but how many marine players will let you get that close with koptas? people arent stupid, they will realise what you are doing and remove the threat.
and how do they stand in comparison against monoliths?
oh, and for reference, tankhammers kill AV14.

3: do or die missions for koptas are hardly a good idea, if they go flying towads a tank it ill be picked up on, and they will end up getting shot down.

4: if held in combat by jump infantry it gives an ironclad or a similar walker a great chance to assult them.
its common sense, you dont send a waker off to chase down units, you use them to support.

Stelek wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Not if you are facing Russ.

Russes are scary against Orks? Againt Kans? Since when?

Russ dont need to be scary against kans, Russ kill infantry lascannon andautocannon kill vehicles. Autocannon squads kill the kans. Russ blow away the boyz before they get to munch the guard infantry. To get enough boys in combat you need to whittle them down with your own shooting. It all has to be taken as a whole Stelek, you should know this by now.

Stelek wrote:
The IG better kill all of the dreads before they arrive, or they're going to smash his lines into little bits.

Autocannon heavy weapon squad vs kan mob, no problem. 6 shots, 3 hits, 4+ cover save assumed, 4+ to damage kan, most damaging shots should kill. Four autocannon squads fire to destroy one mob +/- one squad. Twelves squads shooting to wipe out maxed kans. Two autocannon squads shooting for three turns before contact will do half the job on their own. The rest of an IG army need not take up much slack to finish the job.

Kans need su;pport in the form of Fa choices to tie up part of the gunline early, or heasvy shooting to mark ceetain priority targets.

Dont get me wrong, I am a fan of kans. I have a kan army and prefer kan heavy lists. But they can be stopped.

Stelek wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Grotzookas arent bad, but dont do anything shootas cannot do, very very nice against other orks though.

Grotzookas do something shootas cannot do: They don't miss, and they are higher strength.

I remain unconvinced. Grotzookas can be good but small blast and average 4" scatter will scatter off most units unless they are big gaunt or ork squads. However to me the most damning criticism is that they are just S6 infantry killer guns. Big shootas are good enough for this role, as are shootas. Yes shootas miss, but if you run mobs of 20+ they can afford to.

Kans profit from BS3 rokkits, Ap2 guns and skorchas that you can hide in a wall of boyz. And skorchas only make the grade because they are cheap.
While I wont rely on kans alone for rokkit shooting, I prefer koptas, it is 'nice' to get the extra S8 shots in.

im with you on the kanz orlanth, kanz arent much good when facing a gun line, they will get shot to bits.

as for weapons on kanz, i hate to say it, but i agree with stelek, the grotzookerz are too good to pass up.

Why massed Grotzookas are a bad idea.


1. Range 18". Think for a minute of what that means, you have kans advancing, because you still have kans advancing you have them tucked behind a screen of boyz and areadvancing to get in range. range to a kan really means S10 CCW range.

You will get ONE TURNS SHOOTING with your Grotzookas, because at 18" you are at the range where yourboyz will be shooting then making the charge forwards.
If your kans are behind a large mob of boyz you could add a good 4" between the kan and front rank of boys. With an 18" weapon it means that the ork is almoast certainly ready to charge the turn your grotzookas come into range.

2. S6 Ap5 Blast2. This type of shooting is good enough for killing light vehicls, but blast measns it will scatter off.
Other than that very dubious benefit there is nothing a grotzooka can really do that a big shoota cannot. While I do not recommnd big shootas on kans as they are guns you can and likely should take in abundance elsewhere.

3. Kustom blastas. While expensive so are termies, and orks have trouble with termies because large volumes of 2+ saves are possible. The only other reliable Ap2 you have is the shokk attack gun, which is not competing with kans, and zzap guns which have problems of their own.
I personally dont take them but they are a good second choice after rokkits.

4. Rokkits. While rokkits can be taken elsewhere you cannot really have too many rokkits in an ork army in general.

5. Skorchas. a difficult choice because of Bs3 but very good nonetheless. As your line advances and pockets open into and through units there is room for skorcha use. Templates can be laid precisely and work well in conjunction with infantry armies as melee survivors and units avoiding melee tend to be clumped together. With the loss of burnas in amongst massed ranks orks lose much of their ability to do this. Skorcha traks can help as can kombi-skorchas but the former are light fast vehicles unsuited to being caught in the traffic jam of green tide. The latter are expensive, can only be used once and in expensive units.
I recommend one skorcha in a kan mob. Depending on what you are facing it is either the cheap, first kan to die, or somerthing to soften up the enemy after the first wave of orks piles in.

You could gtake burna boys of course, but thay are all or nothing and dont wrok well in a footslogger list, which is where you really want massed kans.


Now there is an alternative layout wheras the kans advance first with the boyz behind being screen by kans rather than the other way around. This may be better in some conditions, however my standard loadout of two rokkits and a skorcha will still be of more use overall than three grotzookas for only 5pts more.