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These guys think so. I'm not so sure. Self-identifying conservatives might make up the largest share of the electorate, but conservative is a relative term. Indeed, the Republican party hardly represents conservatism any more. Hard right ideology is just as radical as its hard left counterpart. If anything, the numbers this article offers shows a shift in the meaning of conservatism. Away from laissez-faire capitalism, and towards the model of a regulated economy dictated by our less immediate past.

If you look at aspects of social policy such as healthcare and unemployment benefit, America is to the right of the UK and further right compared to other European countries.

I don't know to what degree the Democrats want to introduce a National Health Service. I know Clinton tried and failed.

We Americans are an enigma. Love us for who we are!

The US has more military expenditure than other developed nations, its welfare is less generous than most other developed nations, and programs of healthcare for the poor are less generous. It’s long been a champion of removing trade barriers and deregulating markets (although that gets complicated, as every country has those special industries that command special protection). So it’s fairly safe to say that it’s government is centre-right.

The American political debate is based around an axis that falls roughly centre-right. Political speaches in the US include a lot more praise and 'greatest nation on Earth' than elsewhere. You don’t see people waving flags with such enthusiasm. It’s unlikely anywhere else in the world that socialist would be used as a term of derision in response to someone flattening the tax rate. No-one, even in the nutty extreme right, cares if you wear a flag pin.

Yeah, the country is centre right.

But then again, like I’ve pointed out in threads before, there are a lot of issues where Americans track pretty closely with the rest of the world, such as universal healthcare, but for one reason or another the issues just don’t get political traction.

I could quote and reply line for line to your post but I don't think it is necessary. The Federal government leans Center-Right, maybe, but you have to also look at the individual states, which vary. Just because we don't have universal federal health care doesn't mean that there are not options and almost every single state has programs to help the uninsured. We don't need the Federal Government to legislate something for it to be legitimate or to get people help. As far as difficulty in getting legislation passed, well, we have a large population, lots of competing interest groups, and a Constitution to deal with. Throw in our history of distrust of government and you have a magical combination.

The truth is that Americans, generally, are fiscally conservative and socially liberal and that means conflict on where you draw the line as to what the government can and should do, and where it should be up to the individual and communities.

America is always right wing because they have no real left wing party. The nearest to the left wing the Democrats get is nowhere near as far left as a mainstream European socialist party, most of which have a left wing that touches the border onto Communism.

Maybe it's because the US is made up of folks who left the rest of the world behind in order to be free to achieve success on their own terms. To "lift themselves up by their own bootstraps" and not rely on a king or queen to nanny them.

Orlanth wrote:America is always right wing because they have no real left wing party. The nearest to the left wing the Democrats get is nowhere near as far left as a mainstream European socialist party, most of which have a left wing that touches the border onto Communism.

Just because one is not the furthest extreme does not mean one is the opposite. Saying we have are right because our left is not as far left is not very reasonable. We aren't that extreme right either, does that mean that suddenly we are left now? You can find examples of both extremes in the US, they are just marginalized because most Americans are moderate with slight leanings one way or the other. We try to balance the individual and the collective, and it isn't an easy balance.

Ahtman wrote:I could quote and reply line for line to your post but I don't think it is necessary. The Federal government leans Center-Right, maybe, but you have to also look at the individual states, which vary. Just because we don't have universal federal health care doesn't mean that there are not options and almost every single state has programs to help the uninsured. We don't need the Federal Government to legislate something for it to be legitimate or to get people help. As far as difficulty in getting legislation passed, well, we have a large population, lots of competing interest groups, and a Constitution to deal with. Throw in our history of distrust of government and you have a magical combination.

The truth is that Americans, generally, are fiscally conservative and socially liberal and that means conflict on where you draw the line as to what the government can and should do, and where it should be up to the individual and communities.

It's true you can look at individual states and find significant variety. You can also look at individuals and find even greater variety. But we're talking in general terms here, and in general the US political debate is around a centre right point.

Ahtman wrote:

Just because one is not the furthest extreme does not mean one is the opposite. Saying we have are right because our left is not as far left is not very reasonable. We aren't that extreme right either, does that mean that suddenly we are left now? You can find examples of both extremes in the US, they are just marginalized because most Americans are moderate with slight leanings one way or the other. We try to balance the individual and the collective, and it isn't an easy balance.

That's my feeling as well. I think, in general, that there is a push toward the center from most Americans. However, I think a lot of this is thrown off by two things:

1) The baby boomers. That group of people in their early 50's to late 60's have a tendency to vote to the right for the simple fact that many of them do quite well for themselves, are near retirement, or are retired. However, parentage and education makes this a fairly pragmatic voting bloc. They will not, as a group, vote to the right if the right does not serve their individual interests.

2) Generation X. This is a group that has been fed the Reaganite Kool-Aid their entire lives. Not as well educated as the baby boomers, but still with a significant proportion of college graduates. However, there is a disproportionate number of economics degrees within the educated portion of the sample. The 80's and 90's being the heyday of monetarist thought it shouldn't be surprising that a significant portion of these people vote to the right. However, their motivations are different those of the boomers. Rather than being pushed by self-interest as a pragmatic value they tend to be pushed by self-interest as ideological construct. As such, their vote is more difficult to sway.

Combine that with blocs that transcend generations (Christian Right, gun advocates, etc.) and it isn't surprising that America has leaned well to the right in recent years. This is changing though. Generation Y is primarily left-leaning. The increasing population of pragmatic minorities will also likely lean to the left in a way which will counter the waning voice of the Republican base. And the black vote which is actually turning our in a significant way; emboldened by rhetoric as well as the chance to elect a black President. Throw in the financial crisis which spurred a large number of baby boomers into jumping ship, and you've got yourself an electorate which is leaning to the left. If only because the perception is that we have strayed very far from the center.

So you're agreeing with Ahtman? Its the Seventh Sign!

I think that it's center-right economically. The organized left (and I mean leftist by international standards) has almost no access to the formal levers of power here, while free-market zealots like Alan Greenspan and other Ayn Rand acolytes have long had access to the corridors of power.

Socially, the culture-creators (media, film, tv, writers, etc.) tend to be quite liberal. Most Americans are pretty socially liberal. Society is increasingly permissive of all sorts of odd behavior, while strict traditionalists are increasingly marginalized in most places.

dogma wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Just because one is not the furthest extreme does not mean one is the opposite. Saying we have are right because our left is not as far left is not very reasonable. We aren't that extreme right either, does that mean that suddenly we are left now? You can find examples of both extremes in the US, they are just marginalized because most Americans are moderate with slight leanings one way or the other. We try to balance the individual and the collective, and it isn't an easy balance.

That's my feeling as well. I think, in general, that there is a push toward the center from most Americans. However, I think a lot of this is thrown off by two things:

1) The baby boomers. That group of people in their early 50's to late 60's have a tendency to vote to the right for the simple fact that many of them do quite well for themselves, are near retirement, or are retired. However, parentage and education makes this a fairly pragmatic voting bloc. They will not, as a group, vote to the right if the right does not serve their individual interests.

2) Generation X. This is a group that has been fed the Reaganite Kool-Aid their entire lives. Not as well educated as the baby boomers, but still with a significant proportion of college graduates. However, there is a disproportionate number of economics degrees within the educated portion of the sample. The 80's and 90's being the heyday of monetarist thought it shouldn't be surprising that a significant portion of these people vote to the right. However, their motivations are different those of the boomers. Rather than being pushed by self-interest as a pragmatic value they tend to be pushed by self-interest as ideological construct. As such, their vote is more difficult to sway.

Combine that with blocs that transcend generations (Christian Right, gun advocates, etc.) and it isn't surprising that America has leaned well to the right in recent years. This is changing though. Generation Y is primarily left-leaning. The increasing population of pragmatic minorities will also likely lean to the left in a way which will counter the waning voice of the Republican base. And the black vote which is actually turning our in a significant way; emboldened by rhetoric as well as the chance to elect a black President. Throw in the financial crisis which spurred a large number of baby boomers into jumping ship, and you've got yourself an electorate which is leaning to the left. If only because the perception is that we have strayed very far from the center.

I'm not sure the baby boomers are as right wing as you suggest, but the group that came between them and Gen-X that I don't ever got a name are certainly strongly right wing. Add in the general sentiment of anti-government and the swing to the right that came from opposing the Communists and it's pretty much all explained.

Pariah Press wrote: I think that it's center-right economically. The organized left (and I mean leftist by international standards) has almost no access to the formal levers of power here, while free-market zealots like Alan Greenspan and other Ayn Rand acolytes have long had access to the corridors of power.

Socially, the culture-creators (media, film, tv, writers, etc.) tend to be quite liberal. Most Americans are pretty socially liberal. Society is increasingly permissive of all sorts of odd behavior, while strict traditionalists are increasingly marginalized in most places.

I'm not sure I'd say its that socially liberal politically speaking. The recent gay marriage amendments to state constitutions argue against that.

But I will grant there is a left wing counter culture in film and other media that the rest of the world is, or at least should be, envious of.

utan wrote:Maybe it's because the US is made up of folks who left the rest of the world behind in order to be free to achieve success on their own terms. To "lift themselves up by their own bootstraps" and not rely on a king or queen to nanny them.

Irrelevant. The differences have nothing to do with comparisons to European monarchies or Republics, both differ greatly from the US model.

sebster wrote:

I'm not sure the baby boomers are as right wing as you suggest, but the group that came between them and Gen-X that I don't ever got a name are certainly strongly right wing. Add in the general sentiment of anti-government and the swing to the right that came from opposing the Communists and it's pretty much all explained.

I always defined the baby boomers as births from 1943-1960, and Gen X as 1961-1981. Which I suppose explains why I would see the boomers as being right leaning (meaning they vote pragmatically), and Gen X as right-wing (meaning they vote ideologically).

Ahtman wrote:

Orlanth wrote:America is always right wing because they have no real left wing party. The nearest to the left wing the Democrats get is nowhere near as far left as a mainstream European socialist party, most of which have a left wing that touches the border onto Communism.

Just because one is not the furthest extreme does not mean one is the opposite. Saying we have are right because our left is not as far left is not very reasonable. We aren't that extreme right either, does that mean that suddenly we are left now? You can find examples of both extremes in the US, they are just marginalized because most Americans are moderate with slight leanings one way or the other. We try to balance the individual and the collective, and it isn't an easy balance.

Nope. You have missed the point completely by relying on some very limited thinking.

I said the USA has no major left wing party, this does not say - as you assume by the above post - that this mean the right wing parties are any more to the right than other western nations.

You do know what happens if you don't balance a set of scales, yes? Its playschool physics and mathematics both. You have a weight on the right against a weight on the left you get a balance that is further to the left than if you replaced the weight to the left and placed it further into the centreline. All this can happen without shifting the weight on the right at all.

Pariah Press wrote: I think that it's center-right economically. The organized left (and I mean leftist by international standards) has almost no access to the formal levers of power here, while free-market zealots like Alan Greenspan and other Ayn Rand acolytes have long had access to the corridors of power.

Socially, the culture-creators (media, film, tv, writers, etc.) tend to be quite liberal. Most Americans are pretty socially liberal. Society is increasingly permissive of all sorts of odd behavior, while strict traditionalists are increasingly marginalized in most places.

Liberalism is broadly centreline politics.

Socialism is the true left wing.

The USA doesnt have an electorally crediable socialist party and to my knowledge never has in living memory. liberalism only appears left wing by comparison to Conservatism.

Orlanth wrote:

Liberalism is broadly centreline politics.

Socialism is the true left wing.

this is the thing about American politics, In any other Democracy Liberal means centre/right, in America it's now viewed as one step away from the Warsaw pact. the whole political paradigm was shifted by Reagan in the 1980's and Liberal became a dirty word used to bash political opponents.

American politics are not centre right, they are fairly hard right by other countries standards, the democrats are NOT left wing, they belive in Liase Fare ecconomics, a significant proportion oppose socialised healthcare and they are pretty socially conservative. They get away with policies that the Conservative party (a right wing party in Europe) would not dream of.

The republicans are generally harder right wing, but are also generally Libertarian, especially ecconomically. However they have been Hijacked by the Christian Right and are very socialy conservative, generally opposed to abortion/gay rights etc...
however Republican policy is generally more geared towards power to individual states. It's also worth remembering that the Republican's were initially formed in the north before the civil war to oppose slave owning.

so no America is not centre right, America is RIGHT wing politically.

and it's their country and I'm glad they get to choose how they run it. even if i fundamentally oppose most of the desicions they make.

(just don't kill the rest of us as well)

anyone else enjoying the desperate attempts to make 3 states results interesting?

dogma wrote:I always defined the baby boomers as births from 1943-1960, and Gen X as 1961-1981. Which I suppose explains why I would see the boomers as being right leaning (meaning they vote pragmatically), and Gen X as right-wing (meaning they vote ideologically).

I don’t know man, it was from baby-boomers that feminism, civil rights and the first attempts at gay rights, pretty left wing causes.

Mind you, by the time the last of the generation was eligible to vote they brought in Reagan… I guess talking about the political tendencies of everyone born in a twenty range is going to have some discrepancies.

sebster wrote:
I don’t know man, it was from baby-boomers that feminism, civil rights and the first attempts at gay rights, pretty left wing causes.

Yea, but they were arguments made from the stance of kicking the government out of private life. That was Marcuse's whole project; the removal of false needs that he saw as being directly connected to the propagandic oppression of corporate society. The Left in the US simply turned this logic on the government which was, at the time, a far more important force than corporate America.

sebster wrote:
Mind you, by the time the last of the generation was eligible to vote they brought in Reagan… I guess talking about the political tendencies of everyone born in a twenty range is going to have some discrepancies.

Yea, there is always that little caveat. Maybe a better way to say it is that the boomers tend to be pretty reflective people. They don't want to be hemmed in and, given the broad experiences of their lives, have a better grasp of how to play the powers against one another in order to achieve that. That takes care of social justice in the 60's, and Reagan's role back of government in the 80's.

Orlanth wrote:Nope. You have missed the point completely by relying on some very limited thinking.

I see you are taking the high road. Good for you.

I think the premise of the article is giving a confused, but somewhat correct, view of America.

What's confused, is I think the author is trying to say that America is center-right relative to America. That's a somewhat confused thing to say, since a country should really be centered on its own political center... It's a tautology really...

As has been said, America is generally to the right of most European countries. That's a fact (and I prefer it that way, we don't all need to be socialists).

But what I think this author is saying, which is something felt acutely by all American conservatives, is that the country is perpetually living to the left of the people's true views.

Americans are fundamentally libertarians, they favor low taxes, small government and personal freedom. Everyone worldwide likes to pay lip service to these things, but most Americans REALLY do value them beyond the average.

It's this general ootlook that I consider the true center of the American political landscape. But, with that as the starting point, you add in the American mainstream media, who have a very aggressive, very persistent left-center bias, mixed with a massive dose of sensationalism.

Their efforts lead to a leftward skewing of the American perception of current affairs, and as a result people tend to vote a bit left of where they actually stand.

In this respect the author is correct. The US is actually right of itself, pulled there by a relatively small population of left leaning journalists, movie makers, tv producers, etc. etc. etc.

Phryxis wrote:I think the premise of the article is giving a confused, but somewhat correct, view of America.

What's confused, is I think the author is trying to say that America is center-right relative to America. That's a somewhat confused thing to say, since a country should really be centered on its own political center... It's a tautology really...

No, he's trying to say America is nominally perceived as center-right relative to the rest of the world, and that this is changing.

Phryxis wrote:
As has been said, America is generally to the right of most European countries. That's a fact (and I prefer it that way, we don't all need to be socialists).

I wouldn't call the Europeans socialists, not by a long shot.

Phryxis wrote:
But what I think this author is saying, which is something felt acutely by all American conservatives, is that the country is perpetually living to the left of the people's true views.

Huh? That's not it at all. Actually, he's talking about how the nation is moving towards the left. Moreover, the last 8 years have been to the left of 'real' America?

Phryxis wrote:
Americans are fundamentally libertarians, they favor low taxes, small government and personal freedom. Everyone worldwide likes to pay lip service to these things, but most Americans REALLY do value them beyond the average.

Low relative to what? The US has some of the lowest taxes in the developed world. Small relative to what? US tax revenue is only 25.7% of GDP, again one of the lowest in the developed world. Personal freedom though, we've got that in spades.

Phryxis wrote:
It's this general ootlook that I consider the true center of the American political landscape. But, with that as the starting point, you add in the American mainstream media, who have a very aggressive, very persistent left-center bias, mixed with a massive dose of sensationalism.

So, America naturally centers on the extreme right wing, yet appears to be on the left?

Phryxis wrote:
Their efforts lead to a leftward skewing of the American perception of current affairs, and as a result people tend to vote a bit left of where they actually stand.

Can you explain this a bit more? Examples would help.

Phryxis wrote:
In this respect the author is correct. The US is actually right of itself, pulled there by a relatively small population of left leaning journalists, movie makers, tv producers, etc. etc. etc.

How exactly does that work? Because I'm not seeing it.

The problem that other nations (particularly in Europe)have when comparing US politics to their own is the volume control on the social right.

Because the anti-gay, anti-abortion and pro-gun lobbies all crank up to 11 - the perception is that this is all Americans care about.
Domestic policy in the US tends to be percieved as a desperate rear-guard action by a few liberal judges to stop the christian right from enacting Leviticus into law and by a few worldly-wise politicians to stop rednecks from sealing the borders and having a home arsenal that would make a Space Marine envious...

I'm sure this is not the case. The Americans I have been fortunate enough to meet in my life have generally been thoughtful and considered (although I suppose the bible-belt crowd wouldn't come to Europe, pulsating as it is with filth and unnatural acts... )

This is the main reason why I'm glad Obama has won. Hopefully we'll see the true American majority now - people that by and large don't think its right to arbitrarily impose their will on others. A people genuinely committed to freedom and democracy that will sideline the social extremists while retaining respect for the choices those people choose to make for themselves.

I think Americans do tend to the right. In matters of defense, foreign policy and economics I'm not sure this is a good thing but as far as individual freedom goes its something that should be recognised as an example by many countries round the globe.

To the extent that collectivism is associated with socialism and individualism is associated with conservatism, the USA is a more right-wing country than Europe or Japan.

Americans consistently test as less collective and more individual in their psychology. Japanese are at the other end of the scale, Europeans generally are fairly collective and British are more individualistic.

However, it should be noted that while Japanese have a very collectivist psychology, their government is by most standards quite right wing.

What personal freedoms do Americans enjoy that I havent got ? (except from having the right to own semi-automatic guns).

Guaranteed freedom of speech, press, assembly, due process, seizure of private property for no recompense, and theoretically all rights not specifically given to the Federal government. These are Constitutional protections, not mere laws which can be changed at the whim of the political party in power or some judge who has a hair up his . and thinks he's god.

Some of these rights are sometimes abrogated -- for example, forcible internment of US citizens of Japanese ancestry during WW2.

If you look at the UK, these rights are guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European version, to both of which the UK is a signatory.

But even so the right of assembly, for example, has been limited by various Acts of Parliament.

You're relying on your treaty for human rights? Now there's a pile of quicksand. That can't be it can it?

What happened to the Magna Carta? What happened to the English tradition of rights and property, of John Locke?