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Pardon the pun.

A while back, before the Daemons and new VC, that some Skaven builds were considered cheesy. I know that the SAD is/was frowned upon, but are the Skaven still thought of poorly?

cheesy is defined basically as an overpowered (but expensive) and destroys your army (anyone been playing daemons?) and skaven cannot do that so they are not cheesey (but new warriors are)

Your definition of cheesey is quite wrong - basically it is anyhing that is very strong for its cost - there is no requirement for high cost.

Resultantly, skaven warriors and slaves at their very low cost are very strong, but probably not cheesey. The globaiders are verging upon it, as are skaveb characters which are great value for their cost.

With a well designed horde, skaven are almost cheesey, but I do not think they quite make it.

They're a bunch of rats, it would be ridiculous to not expect cheese to follow.

Cheese is anything people want to call overpowered because they refuse to adapt to beat it. I say go with whatever floats your boat.

I agree with the definition of Cheese to be:

Overpowered and undercosted, that being said it is true that skill has some to do with it but I don't know anyone that likes playing a game with someone that takes max characters / heros, max rares, and then then two small blocks of 5 troops (or what ever the minimum is).

Case in point say 1 Grey seer Thanq & boneripper, 3 Engneers, 40 jezzails, 2 Warpfire cannons, 4 blocks of 20 clan rats each with a rattling gun.

thats roughly about 2000 points, but if you look at the ratios of Hero (45%)/ Special(40%) / Rare(5%) / Core(%10) you can see its badly skewed.

There are people on these boards that will tell you that nothing is cheesy and play what ever you want, but the fact is that GW has puplicly stated that they do not play test "extreme" lists because they feel that no one should be playing them on a regular basis (honestly if someone had the list above and another play brought a more balanced list who would you play against?) If you play cheese you will quickly find yourself losing compition. That being said there is a time and a place for everything if you join a Tourney and there is not compisition score / sportsmanship then expect, and bring the most broken list you can afford.


Summery:

You are cheesy if you bring an overpowered and undercosted army to play a friendly game, you are not cheesy if you bring that same army to a tourney.

Clthomps wrote:
There are people on these boards that will tell you that nothing is cheesy and play what ever you want, but the fact is that GW has puplicly stated that they do not play test "extreme" lists because they feel that no one should be playing them on a regular basis (honestly if someone had the list above and another play brought a more balanced list who would you play against?) If you play cheese you will quickly find youself losing compition. That being said there is a time and a place for everything if you join a Tourney and there is not compisition score / sportsmanship then expect, and bring the most broken list you can afford.

It's not because they don't think people should do this. It's because they don't think lists like that exist. They have chose the denial option. They are lazy and don't want to actually properly balance the game.

I think Skaven are often thought to be cheesy because you can min/ max your weapon teams and generally take a lot of shooting.

If you ever played against a 'proper' Skaven SAFH, this wouldn't even be up for debate.

Allessio (sorry for the spelling!) deserves to be flogged for the abomination that is the Skaven Army book.

In fact, he's said something along those lines himself, I think!

I would say that they're not so much cheesy as they're annoying. Being tied up with slaves with a general near by giving them a moral boost to keep them in combat. Not to mention they tie you up and then just shoot the crap out of the unit that's tied up, I mean... they're only slaves lol

Annoying... but not cheesy

I think that Skaven COULD be a cheezy army in 6th edition. They are not, however, the same army in 7th. Specifically when talking about weapons teams. To all the people who talked about them - have you faced them recently? My oponents simply pick the weapons teams out first. They die quite easily. Jezzails, otoh, are still quite good, though losing the -1 to hit protection hurt them as well. I'd say that Skaven are a middle to lower list now and though you might still be able to make them 'cheezy' it doesn't mean they're a power list.

Well, first off, there's a huge difference between min/maxing and cheese.

Min/maxing is making your army brutally efficient by using what is given to you to minimize your weaknesses and maximize your strengths. You can do this with any army, and it may seem like cheese to a lot of people. Since a LOT of skaven players do this, Skaven may seem cheesier than most armies, but I've never had a problem with even the most efficient lists.

Cheese, though it has already been explained, is any unit that has stats that are way too good for their current points cost. I've never truly seen this problem with Skaven, as any of their units can easily be taken out by a unit with an equal or lesser points cost.

Even with a SAFH Skaven army, I've never had any problem beating it, and I play a completely close combat army. Even if it is an Ogre army, and their ridiculous charge and movement range negates long range weapons pretty well.

personally, as my first army, i thought skaven were balanced. now...well i know about rattling guns. depends on the list you take, but in theroy, 3 rattling guns and two warp lightning cannons are frowned upon in 2k (or considered OTT)

right now, as i am playing tomb kings instead of beloved rats, i don't know. with the advent of demons ( i will never use the english-english term, it makes saying the word feel wierd) and warriors of chaos, i think skaven have lost alot of thier...ahem...cheesy-ness, but they can still fight like a maddend grandma with a cane.

they arnt cheezy, but when played by a tricky player, its very sudden and devastating to the enemy.
the sudden shock might be the factor that make your opponent say its cheezy o.0?

for example they are so confident slaughtering the skaven slaves for 1st round or 2.
then suddenly in comes your warpfire and gattling gun...

*jaw drops xD