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Hello Dakka -

So my LFGS is running a fantasy campaign. I've only played 40k but I like campaigns so I decided to start up a small (though I know it is going to end up being big) army. I bought BFSP last night and did a quick skim of the rules. Looking at the GW website, I like the elves fluff (leaning towards Dark Elves - especially since no one else is playing them). I am also interested in Chaos Warriors. Can anyone elaborate on their playing styles for me. As a second priority to 40k I also don't want to spend tons of money (though I know I will). Are one of these armies cheaper to build than the other? Or is fantasy generaly more expensive than 40k?

I play orks in 40k and am really looking for a different play style. I like being aggressive in HTH and maneuverable. I also would like to have strong magic capabilities. I don't necessarily need a beginners army, I'm sure I can learn the nuances fairly quickly and even if i'm not winning, I'm having fun as long as I'm playing. Oh, and ease of painting is always a plus.

Thanks for any and all of your input!

Chaos has (almost) no shooting. It is really a close combat and magic army. In general chaos will wreck face in close combat against most things. The dark elves have a good mixture of all 3 phases. Dark elf magic if taken to the max can be one of the most if not the most powerful magic phases in the game. They have a 2 or 3 hammer units for CC (Hydra, Black Guard to an extent, and their Cold one knights). They can also have a TON of cheap shooting with repeater crossbows and bolt throwers.

At our FLGS most of the DE players play with a lot of magic and shooting with 1 or 2 hammer units for CC (usualy 1 or 2 hydras and 1 unit of cold one knights w/ a character and hydra banner).
Most of the chaos players either play the monster list of CC beatdownness or the Elite infantry/cav with tons of magic list.

Both great armies. I would say check out the fluff in the books, look at the models (you will have to paint them anyway), and then go with whatever suits you better. Im sure you will have fun with either.

Thanks for the reply. Is the batallion box for the Dark Elves a good buy:

12 DE Warriors w/ Spear & Shield
16 DE Warriors w/ Repeater crossbow
20 Corsairs
5 Cold One Knights

Or should I start out with the Spearhead (btw, when did the new DE models come out? recently?)

10 black ark corsairs
5 Cold One Knights
1 War Hydra
1 Assassin
1 Lokhir Fellheart
1 Dreadlord on Cold One
1 Dreadlord
1 Supreme Sorceress on Cold One
1 Supreme Sorceress

Seems like all the heroes to me..

I would go with the spearhead. You are going to want pretty much everything in it + the codex comes in there. You can fill your core with unit boxes pretty easily after that. The Spearhead has 2 of the hammer units (hydra & knights) and a very solid core unit. Not to mention all the characters you will need in it. All you will need past that is a couple units of warriors or something of that sort and you will be ready to rock some DE's.
The New models came out shortly after the codex. I think about 5 months ago if that.

Perfect. I like getting newer armies since the hopefully their codex will not be updated for a while. Thanks

Anyone else have any thoughts on DE?

Builds? Combos? Which Heroes to use?

There are tons of lists here in the lists section. Most common (and very deadly) one I see is something like this:

High Sorc lvl 4 with sacrificial dagger and reverse ward save
Sorc lvl 2 with darkstar cloak
Sorc lvl 2
Fighty Hero on Cold one (some use a BSB here)

1 unit warriors x15 or 20 for High sorc to kill off

1 unit Repeater xbowmen x 10 or 20

1 unit corsairs or another xbowmen unit

2 hydras

5x cold one knights w/ hydra banner & fighty character

Then filler of whatever you like.

thanks. I'll check out the army lists and battle reports.

I agree on the Spearhead. It pretty much gives you all the hero/lord choices you'll need, save a few you might want to buy later. Plus you love playing with the Hydra! He is SWEET!

As far as the comparison:

In the WHFB world, Chaos is kinda like a solid 40k SM army. In that their units are very tough, and can usually take out other equal or slightly better units in CC. So since you are used to Orks, this might suit you since orky shootn' is not really what you build your army around either.

The DE army is very versatile, but does require some finesse. The 'hammer' units (units you use to smash your opponents) aren't as cut and dry as the Chaos army. The COK units are great if they get the charge, but suffer from stupidity so I've played games where the dice gods are not nice and they sit there doing nothing all game. DE are also good at utilizing the MSU style of play. Meaning that your units are small and maneuverable instead of being huge blocks. This style takes some getting used to as well.

Having said that, I am a HUGE fan of DE. I play them regularly, and enjoy the different uses for their units.

So, to sum up:

Choose Chaos if you're looking for a straight forward, smash, pound, kick your opponent in the teeth, army.

Choose DE if you're looking to implement a little more strategy and finesse to your game play.

Taking into Canaan and natedawgg's comments, i'm leaning towards the DE.

I want a very different game style vs. orks. Though the reason I like orks is that I can change my gamestyle (I've played KoS since 3rd ed) and prefer a maneuverable army dictating assault. I started moving towards a more shootier list though.

I definitely want a more strategic army where it takes finesse to play. I also want to be able to compete in all three phases, so I didn't know Chaos warriors don't really have shooting.

Any big differences between High Elves and Dark Elves (besides fluff)?

Tons:
DE's can way out magic HE's
They can also way outshoot HE's
Oh, and they can way out maneuver HE's

HE's all strike first if you get into combat with them even if you charge. Making their elite strength 5 and 6 special infantry very deadly. The could probably take you in a CC square off (depending on unit vs unit) but again with DE's yuo widdle yuor oponent down to almost nothing then engage where you need to in CC.

I think DE's would be a great buy for you. I think you will have lots of fun with them.

I play Chaos and there is only 1 army I fear to play against. That is the DE's

Canaan,

You must be a salesman because I think you've sold me on DE.

Thanks for your help

Well, since you're sold, this post is pointless. But I'm gonna post anyway.

I've played DE since 5th edition. The 6th ed. Dark Elves were sad pandas indeed, so much so that they got an official update & had their army book re-released... and that didn't help much. But it was possible to build a really nasty DE army, a highly maneuverable points-denial list, that could give fits to most other armies. 6th ed DE forced you to become a subtle general; Bretonnians they were not.
7th ed DE has taken all that was good about the 6th edition, and covered it with a thick layer of awesome, while at the same time managing to get rid of most of the weak bits in the list. I love my new DE, they are just like the old ones, but with hatred.

I have been playing around with the new chaos book, and so far my reaction has been: meh. In all honesty, I think the only viable builds WoC are going to have will rely heavily on cavalry, big infantry, and flying characters. The foot troops are still too slow, and too vulnerable to shooting.

As far as an army list goes, my general advice for DE is:
for core, take about three units of Dark Riders, and two units of 5-7 harpys.
For special, take shades... lots of shades. Maybe a unit of Cold One Knights.
For Rare, take two hydras. Yes, it's mean, but you're a Dark Elf.
For characters, take a couple of sorceresses. Then adjust to your playing style: Supreme Sorceress, Dreadlord on Dragon, Hag on War Altar (Hellebron on manticore, just for laughs?); maybe an assassin or two if you have the points.

For tactics, you run around in cover, use your DR to bait & flee, drawing enemy units in range of your shade's fire. The harpys attack your opponent's missle troops and war machines while your hydras cross the field. Ideally, a hydra hits the front of an enemy unit as DR hit its flank, and then one of your casters hits the unit with Word of Pain. Repeat as necessary.

Note that this is my favored playstyle, honed in the dark days of 6th edition. The new book actually makes a 'traditional' ranked infantry + cav, stand-up fight style of army a completely viable option.

I'd second Canaan's assessment of DE vs. HE.

At face value, they have near identical units, but overall, I'd say the Dark Elves outclass the High Elves.

DE magic is just plain mean and nasty. And with the sacrificial dagger, you can easily over-power your opponent in the magic phase.

Never underestimate 20+ S3 Armor piercing shots.

I would say that in a unit by unit comparison with their respective Dark/High units (ie, DE Warriors vs. HE spears; DE Cold One Knights vs. HE Dragon Princes), the respective Dark Elf units tend to be better/cheaper. Also, even though ASF is a powerful rule (especially on the S5/6 infantry), Hatred on the Dark Elves comes out to be soooo much more useful, IMO. Especially against High Elves where the rerolls carry over every round of combat.

I highly recommend Dark Elves, is, I suppose, what I'm trying to say.

Also: Try out a BSB on a Cold One with the Hydra Banner in a unit of Cold One Knights. It's pretty devastating. (My friend's failed Stupidity check only twice in the times he's played so far).

I always appreciate more input on DE. Still learning the game and don't even have the codex yet, but that will be my first purchase (or the spearhead). We are starting at small points 500 or so at the start of the campaign and will be building up slowly. Hopefully that gives me time to figure out how to use different models and experiment with different builds.

Thanks

In response to the question about expense:

Generally, if you run elite infantry heavy armies, you'll be paying a lot, since the majority of those models tend to be metal. With the Spearhead and the Battalion box, though, you could probably get by for a while pretty well.

fellblade wrote:
I have been playing around with the new chaos book, and so far my reaction has been: meh. In all honesty, I think the only viable builds WoC are going to have will rely heavily on cavalry, big infantry, and flying characters. The foot troops are still too slow, and too vulnerable to shooting.

Hum I keep hearing things like this... and I have to say this makes me said. I'm another 40K player (Eldar & Nids) that is thinking about jumping into WFB (reading the core rules now).

I'm trying to figure out which army to get. I'd like something that takes less finesse than Eldar... something that is aggressive and can charge right in. So I was thinking Warriors of Chaos might be the right choice (as I love the black knights models and the new Chaos Lord on a Daemon Horse).

I also like the idea of an army that is all magic and Hand to hand. But I also don't want to jump into that if the army is no good... Could it be just the fact that people are still having to learn how to play them?

-Jara

PS: Other armies I was considering was Vampire Lords, but I think how weak the troops combined with the number of troops has me leaning away (not to mention the overall seem like a more expensive army). Dark Elves, I like the visual look hence this thread has been very intresting for me to read, but overall I think they may be too much like Eldar and I'm wanting a change.

Chaos is great for what you describe. The core choices can be cheap (as low as 120 points of all your required core) in chaos armies. You can get tons of elite knights and dragon ogres to run across the field aall the while casting yur heart out until you smash into your oponent with all the fury of the blood god. Just be bareful of those dwarf and empire gun lines!

In terms of cost for the battalion box vs the spear head for DE: The spearhead gives no advantage over just buying the models one by one. The battalion comes with the equivalent of 1 3/4 boxes of warriors, 2 boxes of corsairs, and a box of cold one knights. Using US retail price for individual purchase, it would cost $127.25, saving you 37 dollars. You get one box of warriors free in a sense. The spearhead you get a book, a hydra, 10 corsairs, a unit of COK a hydra, an Assassin, 2 supreme Sorceress (one mounted), and Lokhir. This comes out to the exact same price as buying retail. Plus you end up with models that you wont use every game. The battalion box will get you the "core" of a decent DE list. You will probably use every model in it on a regular basis, unless you run one of the more extreme lists out there. The spearhead doesn't even get you enough core to run a 500 point game, but the battalion just needs a HQ to be legal. Also don't buy any individual item that still uses the terrible old sculpt of the cold ones. Try to wait for 2nd wave dark elves hopefully coming out. They better replace the remaining models that use it.

I have some interesting info on the Choas Warriors vs DE front too. I play 2 armies, DE and Ogres. My usual opponent play with Chaos warriors. My Ogres, who smack around my local VC, Empire, and to a lesser extent bretonians, lose horribly to Chaos Warriors. Something about being just as good in combat and actually having armor. His Warriors die in windrows vs my DE. I can out magic him, out shoot him, and out combat his survivors once he closes. His challenges fall flat on their face most of the time when i have assassins. I will probably start losing more when he gets more horsemen, but right now his is running some foot sloggers in addition to the knights. The foot sloggers do very little for him, other than to keep his wizards alive. The only unit I really fear is the Chaos Knights. (well i fear some of the monsters, but i bring reaper bolt throwers for them) Hard hitting, tough to shoot, and hard to kill in combat, make for a big problem. Heck, I even magic them to WS 1 and they kick the butt of my stuff. All in all the biggest problem with WoC is that they have a hard time bring static resolution. Really hard to get ranks with army, so you have to win with kills in combat. Considering how good in combat they are, this isn't too hard if you only get into combat with units you are supposed to. But one round of underwhelming killing, and bam, your unit will get broken. No real shooting means that its hard to knock off ranks too.

When is the expected release of the new DE models?

Which models are still old? Or is it easier to answer which models have been newly released. If I'm just getting into it, I might as well buy the newest edition models.

Thansk

Basically, whatever is in the spearhead is new, and everything else is not.

The ones to really watch out for are any model that has the old lizard version of cold ones. Chariots, regular sorcerer on cold one, and malus dark blade all have the old sculpt of the cold ones. As for when a new wave of DE models might come out: just a rumor so far, nothing on schedule yet.

If you just want to play these models now rather than maybe later, it wouldn't be hard to convert some. The new Dreadlord on cold one could be "counts as" Malus. You can either shave off part of the metal sorcerer to maker her fit in the saddle, or you can just use the supreme sorcerer model as a regular one. The Chariot might take some doing to convert thought. The new cold ones have rather large saddles that might be hard to make look right with a chariot. But chariots aren't exactly a required item in DE.

Most of of the metal models in the range are still the old sculpt. Most of the new metal in is the spearhead. Harpies, dark riders, bolt throwers, the dragon, manticore, pegasus, executioners, black guard, everything wyches, and shades are all old. Many of these probably won't be changed, because the sculpt is great as is. Only the sculpts that had the old cold one, and maybe the Dread lord on dragon really stand out as lower quality. (I don't like the manticore that much, but some people like it) The new range is fantastic in detail, so personally I don't like it when old models that are underwhelming are sitting next to them. Takes away from your armies cohesive look. This is of course from a perspective that won't paint models that I don't enjoy painting. (And i don't like playing with unpainted models unless they are 40k orks. Go Gray Tide!)