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So my local hobby club is going to have a warmachine demo in a few weeks with a 750 point tournament, Warmachine has always interested me I have just had no one to play against so I have refrained from buying anything.

One of the other guys who frequents our gaming club has played the game before and already has a concept for his army. I am a very competative person so I don;t want him to be able to take the tournament without at least being challeneged.

This is why i turn to you all I need some help not necessarily with designing an army but knowing where the best places are to get warmachine info such as play tactics and army battle reports.

Though any army suggestions for the 750 point range would deffinatly be appreciated as well.

Thanks for any information you all have to share in advance.

-Zhet

750 points is pretty hefty for a demo. Battlecollege is usually a good place. I hope
someday to have good information here on Dakka , but that's a long ways off.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

malfred wrote:750 points is pretty hefty for a demo. Battlecollege is usually a good place. I hope
someday to have good information here on Dakka , but that's a long ways off.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

Oh really? what is a typical point alotment for say a tournament army?

Ya I looked for articles first before asking and I came up short so I was hoping the community here could help and I see that they can Thank you Malfred.

A starter tournament is usually 350 or 500 points and sometimes "Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw", which means the only models you bring are casters and jacks, or warlocks and warbeasts.

It provides a low model count and allows you to use all the basic rules without muddling things up. Also keeps out things like Epic casters, which could confuse new players.

Gotcha so what is a standard tournament size?

Epic casters huh!? lol I really need to make sure I have a grasp of this game before the demo.

Also is there anythign I should keep in mind when designing and army? i.e. theme(shooting, magic, close combat) an important thing to be mindful of or is balance key?

I'd go with 350. That'll get everyone a caster and 2 heavy jacks or a heavy and 2 lights, depending on points and such.

And the most important thing I'd keep in mind when designing an army is what your caster will spend his time and focus doing, and how well your synergies work out [eg how well one units' abilities either improve upon or are boosted by another units' abilities]. Sneaky things like making a jack unable to be knocked down, then having another jack with two hands throw it over the enemy's heads, then charge their caster.

Second thing I'd keep in mind is how you're going to protect your caster. Since that's all that really matters in this game, you've got to have them positioned correctly.

The 750 point demo is a bit much I am afraid. That is roughly an investment of 200 to 250 euros to get an army that size...

In WM and Hordes the "normal" armies are 500 to 750. But for demos I always hear the standard 350 or preferably the battleboxes (incidently those are mangled metal / tooth and claw (the hordes variant))

You should probably talk to the storeowner about his tournament demo setup... does not sound very realistic...


edit for crappy spelling...

750 pts WM/H roughly equals 2000-2500 pts WH40K game. I don't mean the actual number of models but rather the "feel", complexity and playing time. It's definitely too much for a demo. If you really want to get a grip on the game mechanics and tactics you should start with 350, then build army up to 500 and keep playing on that level for some time (it's like 1500 in WH40K). Only after you really start to "feel" how the game flows should you try to go above that limit.

I see what you mean I read through the basics of the rules last night and if people are gong to try to pick this up they are going to get frusterated if they try for the 750 mark off the top. I will talk to the guy running the demo and see what we can do about that, I want as many people as possible to pick up warmachine so I have people to play against (yes i know it's selfish) we don;t want to scare people away before they really even get to know the game.

If there any other resources out there similar to the battle college link that Mal posted? Is there an active forum for WM or not really? Also is there a place to look up the stats and abilities of models without having to purchase them?

Thanks for all of your help thus far I really do appreciate it.

750 points is pretty hefty for a demo. Battlecollege is usually a good place. I hope
someday to have good information here on Dakka , but that's a long ways off.

My thoughts exactly as far as more activity here on Dakka for WM/Hordes. I would be glad to contribute Tactica when the time comes. As for the original post/question Warmachine has a hefty learning curve and if you want to be competetive you need to play numorous matches and learn what all the other casters can do. At the very least you had better look over his caster card and units and try to figure out the synergy between his forces.

750pts will warp your brain entirely in the begining.

Stick with the battlebox then when you get tired of the "same ol' combo"... pick up a few units. Do the research online. Thank god for online resources! If you take it slow in digesting your faction, you will come out the other side. If not, you will end up getting smoked and either quit or keep buying new factions without understanding any of them fully.

Warmachine/hordes is about synergy. Period. Until you can KNOW each unit and how it DIRECTLY relates to ALL of your other units... you will be in learning mode... and prolly lose some games, alot of games. Once it clicks, and it will... Make way!!!

Learning and understanding the Focus (WM) and Fury (Hordes) mechanics is crucial to the game. WM is a game of managing Focus, Hordes is a game of managing risk (Fury).

The best way to learn is Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw, where it's only the caster/lock and jacks/beasts. Then add infantry and solos into the game.

I would also recommend a 350-pt Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw format for the tourney. Starting at 750 pt tourney would give a huge advantage to seasoned players. Now, not all casters/locks are great at 350 pts, and some have decided advantages, but it'll level the playing field a lot more.

dietrich wrote:
I would also recommend a 350-pt Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw format for the tourney. Starting at 750 pt tourney would give a huge advantage to seasoned players. Now, not all casters/locks are great at 350 pts, and some have decided advantages, but it'll level the playing field a lot more.

It is interesting that you say that cause we are going to have WM models as some of the prizes for the tournament so it makes me wonder if he is trying to set up the tournament so he can win it and get the best stuff since he is the only one at our Gaming club that has any real experience with WM.

The good thing is despite what he might be trying to do majority rules so I think every one else after seeing the rules (I am only through page 15 in the primer and I am already a bit confused lol) will want to do the 350 point lists with only casters and warjacks. I will bring this up this weekend and see what eveyone wants to do or if they want a higher point limit.

Also I have been pouring over the models on the website and I was wondering if Khador is any good or not I really enjoy the look of their warjacks. I am also pretty fond of Cryx as well.

The actual rules for WM are pretty easy. PP has created a really good enviroment to run amok in... and that is what the card/models do.

Sorta like learning what number are was pretty simple right... Learning how to use the numbers in say a complex equation is a whole different story.

40k =checkers
WM= chess------> however, no one is kind enough to tell you when you are in check.

I agree, the basic rules are pretty simple.

The problem is (and why I've gotten away from PP games), is that if you don't play it a lot - and against a variety of foes - it's hard to predict what your opponent will happen. A lot of games are won on some order of operations with models that goes like:

Solo A - activates and casts a spell on you
Unit A - activates and gives boost to unit B
Caster/Lock - activates, casts a spell on Unit B, then casts a spell that does something game changing (like, creates LOS to your caster/lock who was behind a bunch of your troops or smoke clouds dissipate)
Unit B - activates and kills your caster/lock who you thought was very well protected, which wins the game.

If you know it's coming, you kill Solo A or stand somewhere else.

We found that we had a lot of games that became, "well, if I had known that, I would've played my last round totally different."

In addition, there's a lot of interactions between special rules (and there's a lot of special rules).

Don't let me dissuade you. It's a great game, and if I dind't have two kids, I'd be playing a lot more games. It can be a lot of fun, and is different from GW.

As far as I know, there is no where to look up stats. I know everyone is hitting the board saying dont start out with 750pts...

Since you're asking for tactics and advice, which type of army to build around (shooting, magic, melee) I'll try to help out some..

First, take a look over some of the different models and see what pops out at you.. then, get an idea of what army you think you would like and try and start from there. Hope this helps

Hordes Factions

Trollbloods = Avg Def, High Str, Min Spd. Have several "buff" spells to increase your trolls. None of the warlocks have much fury. You're looking at the standard 5 with the two beatsticks ( Madrak, and Borka) and Fury 7 with Doomshaper, who is very squishy.

Circle of Orboros = High Spd, Normal Str, High Def. Have great warbeast. All infantry have "pathfinder" which allows them to walk through terrain and obstacles with no penalties. Most Warlocks are Fury 6 or higher. Beatstick is Fury 8 ( Kromac in beast form).

Skorne Empire = High Arm, Low Def, High Str. Have strong warbeasts. Have several animus(spells that you get from the warbeast themselves) that are amazing. Several Warlocks that bring something new to the table. Can be very good with alot of Infantry. Be careful, most of the army is very slow though.

Legion of Everblight = High Spd, Avg Arm, High Str. Legion has alot of infantry that can more 7" and hit hard. They gain alot of neat tricks depending on the different Warlock you choose. Alot of their warbeasts have great animi, and all have "Eyeless Sight" which means they can see through cover, and past a blocking model. Comes in handy if you want a Caster/lock kill..

Hope this helps a little. I'm sorry, I dont play Warmachine, only against them. Maybe someone else will take the time to point out some ups' and downs' of their factions..

Silverwarrior88 wrote:As far as I know, there is no where to look up stats. I know everyone is hitting the board saying dont start out with 750pts...

Since you're asking for tactics and advice, which type of army to build around (shooting, magic, melee) I'll try to help out some..

First, take a look over some of the different models and see what pops out at you.. then, get an idea of what army you think you would like and try and start from there. Hope this helps

Hordes Factions

Trollbloods = Avg Def, High Str, Min Spd. Have several "buff" spells to increase your trolls. None of the warlocks have much fury. You're looking at the standard 5 with the two beatsticks ( Madrak, and Borka) and Fury 7 with Doomshaper, who is very squishy.

Circle of Orboros = High Spd, Normal Str, High Def. Have great warbeast. All infantry have "pathfinder" which allows them to walk through terrain and obstacles with no penalties. Most Warlocks are Fury 6 or higher. Beatstick is Fury 8 ( Kromac in beast form).

Skorne Empire = High Arm, Low Def, High Str. Have strong warbeasts. Have several animus(spells that you get from the warbeast themselves) that are amazing. Several Warlocks that bring something new to the table. Can be very good with alot of Infantry. Be careful, most of the army is very slow though.

Legion of Everblight = High Spd, Avg Arm, High Str. Legion has alot of infantry that can more 7" and hit hard. They gain alot of neat tricks depending on the different Warlock you choose. Alot of their warbeasts have great animi, and all have "Eyeless Sight" which means they can see through cover, and past a blocking model. Comes in handy if you want a Caster/lock kill..

Hope this helps a little. I'm sorry, I dont play Warmachine, only against them. Maybe someone else will take the time to point out some ups' and downs' of their factions..

I really like the models for Khador but I am partial to Cryx too. I would really like to do either a magic base or melee based army I play Tau mainly in 40k so I would rather play somethng other then shooty.

If someone has the time to post a similar comparison to Silvers for Wm that would be most excellent.

You might be right that the rules are basic but like anyone switching froma system they are used to, to a new one it is always a bit confusing since you have to let go of what you learned i.e. the experience of going to playing checkers to chess.

Though my motives may seem selfish, I should probly explain I don't just want to be competative with the other person at my club that has some WM experience but there are a fair number people who are also active in our FLGS and I want to be able to have enough knowledge to help them enjoy the game as well ( the more people that we can get to play the better imo).

There is very little variety at my gaming club it is mostly 40k and though it is a great game it is nice to have somethign different.

Khador has big, slow jacks that take a beating. They focus more on melee, but have some really good ranged units for support (widowmakers, mortar).

Cryx is a fast, fragile army that tends to rely on magic to set up an assassination of the enemy warcaster. They have shambling zombies and fast moving lightly armored troops.

Cygnar has a lot of elite troops with a good mix of ranged and melee. They used to the be 'ranged' faction, but their melee units are pretty good.

Menoth has a lot of cheap, expendable troops that can do a lot of damage but die easily. They have a lot of in-faction 'buffs' from effects or spells. Things that make their low-end troops good and their medium-quality troops really good.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Warmachine_Factions_at_a_Glance

Ty Malfred you have been especially helpful, thank you dietrich as well for the army summaries.

I read over the army descriptions and I really like the sound of both Cryx(fast, assassination style) and Khador(hearty, and melee oriented)

What would be a good way to start if I choose either of those armies say around 350-500 points, naturally before I have read enough I am tempted to fill space with Jacks but I have been browsing a number of the lists posted here and it seems like most people only run 1 or 2 jacks and the rest are troops and solo's.

I may not know much about Warmachine, but I do have a friend that plays Khador.

Most of the time, his lists compose of just 1 Jack. I know they too are slow(just like the Skorne), but hit really hard. I know the Shocktroopers have a great melee attack, but also a AOE Rng attack. The Demo Crews look great too. There is just something that speaks to a gamers heart about guys carring big hammers that explode. They also have the Iron Fang Pikeman that have a decent stats, and form Shield Wall.

As far as Warcasters, I only know about Sorscha and that Karchev guy(the one that looks like a dang Jack!!!). I know Sorscha has a spell that allows her to move extra a turn, not sure what it's called. The main Caster I've had trouble with is the Karchev. He has some spell that allows him to sling-shot his jacks in your face when he moves. It's brutal has heck when you gert slammed by a Khador heavy Jack. I've seen it used a couple of times, and I believe they pop his feat on the same turn.. which allows the jacks to charge, slam, or run without focus, and I believe they cross terrain without penalties.. Hope this helps some.

Shocktrooper shield cannons aren't aoe.

they're NOT??? I've been cheated.... Maybe I'm thinking of someone else, or I just got thier Rng rules confused with another unit...

Anyway, I dont play em' so I cant say my view of them is 100% accurate..

Zhetsuken wrote:I really like the sound of both Cryx(fast, assassination style) and Khador(hearty, and melee oriented)

What would be a good way to start if I choose either of those armies say around 350-500 points

Both of those factions have decent starter boxes, which also are faithful to the army theme, so I would start there. The starter boxes are little under 350 so you can add couple of solos/ cheap unit to get to 350. Then add unit or two of infantry and solo or two to fill the 500 pts up. There are a lot of good choices available for both factions so browse around looking at which minis you like and someone here can probably draft you decent list or at least push you in correct direction.

Zhetsuken wrote:What would be a good way to start if I choose either of those armies say around 350-500 points, naturally before I have read enough I am tempted to fill space with Jacks but I have been browsing a number of the lists posted here and it seems like most people only run 1 or 2 jacks and the rest are troops and solo's.

I don't want to spoil your fun of finding your own approach to both armies you mentioned however I'll strongly advise you don't buy a cryx starter box. Of the models included in it only the caster (Deneghra) and one of the bonechickens (Deathripper) are really useful nowadays. And you can get both in blisters.
My suggestion will be to start with buying a caster (Deneghra is a VERY good option if you like assassination style of play), a Skarlock Thrall (almost a mandatory solo for any cryx warcater), a blister of Deathrippers and Nightwretches (that will give you 4 arcnodes - enough for almost all game sizes) and fill the rest with any Cryx solos/infantry you want. All the Cryx heavies require a bit of experience to be used properly so I'll suggest to play for a while with the lighter stuff to catch what is the "Cryx way of doing things". And one, final advice - unless your caster is Goreshade or Skarre remember to always include atleast 3 arcnodes in the army. You will need them.

I don't want to spoil your fun of finding your own approach to both armies you mentioned however I'll strongly advise you don't buy a Khador starter box. Of the models included in it only the caster (Sorscha) is useful nowadays.

So like the above poster if you wanted to start Khador By a caster (i would recommend Vlad, since he is very forgiving) And buy alot of what Khador excels in, Beatface brutal infantry. Ironfang and their UA is a great start, Beast '09 is the only jack you will ever use now, and from there do Greatbears or Democore. Most other khador players fill in that last 100pts with support items such as greylords, widowmakers, and mortars.

Khador's infantry is cost effective and VERY resilient with high armor, and somtimes decient defense as well.