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Been a bit since I posted in the forum, I finally had the opportunity to play some warmachine/hordes demos. I am completely addicted now lol. While the demo was going on our FLGS decided to sell off some of thier merchandise that was missing components or pieces. I picked up a complete Thunderhead for 5 dollars hell of a deal imo, down side and reason it was cheap is it doesn't have it's card. I was told that i can get a replacement by calling PP, what # do I call to do this or should I just buy the faction deck?

This leads into the topic question, I wasn't planning on playing cygnar but getting the thunderhead for so cheap kind of makes me want to make a 350 point army to play around with, any suggestion on what combos well with the thunderhead?

Thanks in advance

Kraye, Strangeways, Darius, Nemo & eNemo all get a ton of mileage out of the Thead.

I know the Centriun is pretty good(not sure if I spelled that right). It's SPD 4 but cant be charged or slammed. I'm not sure on the points cost of it.

I know Stryker's feat adds +5 ARM and in a 300 would be really hard to deal with.

Do you know what other jacks you may want to bring to the table?

Zhetsuken wrote:I was told that i can get a replacement by calling PP, what # do I call to do this or should I just buy the faction deck?

From PP's website regarding US, Canada, Asia and Americas:

Customer Service Department: Retailers and Customers alike will find this team insightful when it comes to answering questions and concerns regarding mispacked product, missing parts, our community forums, and website issues.
To contact this department:
Phone: 425-643-5900 Ext 300
Email: frontdesk@privateerpress.com

For the Thead, I'd go with Haley. Temporal Barrier imparts a -3 DEF penalty on enemy models, making its Energy Pulse very accurate. And Blitz gets it a fourth Lightning Coil attack.

Then there's Stryker's Earthquake. It almost guarantees that all of the Energy Pulse attacks hit.

As mentioned, Haley casting temporal barrier and the Thunderhead is really damn effective.

Also, Kraye and guided fire means that all those attack rolls on the energy pulse is boosted.

pNemo can put 5 focus on it, and with the sustained attack on the lighting coils that's boosting on every roll.

eNemo can turn it into an 8 focus monster on its feat turn.

Are you looking for mangled metal, or normal lists??

If mangled metal then the T-head plus a couple lancers to defend the caster (knocking out cortexes in combat) will be good. For caster Haley or As said nemo are nice. Stryker can arcane shield one although this offers less protetion then one might think sometimes...

From what I understand the THead is a bit of an oddity in that it is strong offensively, but can't take much when attacked. I have never played one though, so I could be misinformed...

If you are looking for a normal list then maybe some arcane tempest gun mages or long gunners plus a light jack. Gives a few nice options to learn the game while keeping it small in points.

Also go for a 350 list. That is more or less the minimal after demo-games...

Good luck...

Ya sorry I ment a 350 list I am still very new to WM/Hordes.

I am unsure I have looked at alot of WM lists and most of them seem like they use few jacks and alot of infantry and solos. I am looking for something competative but i tend to lean towrds jacks I just enjoy the models alot more but I know better than to put all my eggs in one basket as it were.

I really like the model for ENemo so I may play him as the standard Nemo, or am I better off using Haley?

I know Cygnar is really more of a shooting army is there any good method to avoid shooting as Cygnar or should I just stick with what they are good at?

Also thanks for all the advice thus far sorry I have been despondent, have been very busy.

Between Haley and Nemo, I'd take Haley, especially in smaller games. Nemo is much easier to assassinate, and I don't think he runs the Thunderhead any better than Haley.

If you want to use the epic model of a warcaster for its non-epic version, it would be fine in friendly games as long as you tell your opponent what your are doing. Note that 1) these kind of substitutions are not allowed in tournaments, 2) the model you purchase will have the wrong cards, and 3) epics can't be taken in games smaller than 750 points.

Cygnar has a number of melee options. The Thead is pretty good in melee if you're fighting jacks, and the Ironclad, Centurion, and Stormclad are capable melee jacks. For infantry, Stormguard and Sword Knights are both versatile and potent. By no means does Cygnar have to play the shooty role in every battle, especially when you take the Piper (merc solo). Also, Haley helps a melee centric Cygnar army more than Nemo does.

If you want to learn more, they have some good tips at http://www.battlecollege.wikispaces.com

I would use the correct card via purchasing the Cygnar deck, good to know though that I can't use it at tournament. Good I have a shooty 40K army and I really want to steer away from one in WM.

So whats a good back up Jack for fighting against Hordes stuff, since the Thead is pretty good at lobotomizing jacks what would i want to take as a support jack against Hordes or well anything not a jack really.

I will look into Haley thanks for the advice.

Depends, Have you decided on jack heavy or not? Do you want 2 heavy jacks or 1 heavy 2 lights? Or do you prefer 1 heavy and troops, or 2 lights... I know these are a lot of questions, but they make or break the choiches...

For instance, this is a reasonable list (IMHO):

Faction: Cygnar
Points: 348
Model Count: 12
Victory Points: 14

Captain Victoria Haley
[list]
[*]Charger
[*]Thorn

Gun Mage Captain Adept
Journeyman Warcaster
Sword Knights [7] (1 added)
[/list]


But then again, this might be more your cup of tea (and you have the heavy):

Faction: Cygnar
Points: 344
Model Count: 9
Victory Points: 13

Captain Victoria Haley
[list]
[*]Lancer
[*]Thunderhead

Sword Knights [6] (0 added)
[/list]

IMHO the Thead is somewhat expensive, as it is 154 and therefore does not even really allow the 1 heavy, 2 lights option...

I think the first list will work somewhat better at this low cost game. The swordknights are there for taking out jacks and infantry, the adept for taking out solo's and taking shots at casters. The jacks are there to stall averything and make it possible for the swordknights to flank...

I always liked the Stormgaurd myself. They have reach with ranked attack. This always seemed good since they could really wreck a Jack/beast with CMA, or just smash into another unit and probably get all the attacks.

I'm a fan of the Ironclad to be honest. He's just cool looking, and has the quake hammer. The Centurion is a beast to deal with. I cant say much about the Thead, since I haven't played against it.... But when I do play against one of the other two I mentioned, they are a big priority.

Lancer is always useful as it has arc node, Thorn is bit more expensive but it is also good.

The secondary jack really depends on the list and the caster you are using. Kraye gives lights really sick abilities and with Stryker and Ironclad/ Ol Rowdy you have two sources of knockdown.

You have to look at the whole of the list and the synergies/ ways you have to tackle different kinds of threats. With 350 you should build a list to be able to assassinate and then have some ways to protect the caster from enemy attempts.

Ya I am seeing how much the Thead is going to limit my lists =( i may just have to hol him in reserve till i make a 500 point list should that day come.

What i am thinking of doing is Capt. Victoria Haley or Kraye, a Lancer , some Storm lancers, a unit of storm Guard, and a journey man warcaster or some combination of the above I do not know the point values yet workig on getting my ducks in a row for my first purchase which will inclue the Prime: remix yes I know the new rules will be coming out but that seems like that is a good year or so away since they plan on doing open testing for a year.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Zhetsuken wrote:What i am thinking of doing is Capt. Victoria Haley or Kraye, a Lancer , some Storm lancers, a unit of storm Guard, and a journey man warcaster or some combination of the above I do not know the point values yet workig on getting my ducks in a row for my first purchase which will inclue the Prime: remix yes I know the new rules will be coming out but that seems like that is a good year or so away since they plan on doing open testing for a year.

Haley gets a lot out of lancer and even more out of Thorn, get one or the other or even both if going for the 2 lights set up. Kraye on the other hand doesn't have as much of a benefit from lancer as the rest of the casters. With Kraye get some shooty light warjacks like sentinel and grenadier as the Krayes special rules are really good for those. Storm lancers are nice but pricey, they will eat about 1/3 of the points you have in 350 list with the Piper merc they have as high cost as Thead. I would keep those also for langer lists.

Storm guards are solid infantry unit and journeyman is a model which should be in every cygnar player's collection.

Get the Armies of Immoren, it's a good army builder for WM/ Hordes.

MetsuriHaley wrote: gets a lot out of lancer and even more out of Thorn, get one or the other or even both if going for the 2 lights set up. Kraye on the other hand doesn't have as much of a benefit from lancer as the rest of the casters. With Kraye get some shooty light warjacks like sentinel and grenadier as the Krayes special rules are really good for those. Storm lancers are nice but pricey, they will eat about 1/3 of the points you have in 350 list with the Piper merc they have as high cost as Thead. I would keep those also for langer lists.

Storm guards are solid infantry unit and journeyman is a model which should be in every cygnar player's collection.

Get the Armies of Immoren, it's a good army builder for WM/ Hordes.

Thanks for the feedback still very new to WM/Hordes I am wondering if i should put off doing a cygnar force and just keep my cheap Thead as a paper weight for the time being. I have read pretty much all the available info on Cygnar and I am seeing it really isn't an army for beginners, I like a challenge but after 40K, Warmachine is such an odd experience something with a more gentle learning curve will better suit me lol.

This said I think I al leaning towards doing a Hordes army I like the way focus/fury works with warbeast and warlocks better than the way it does with WM. I also really like the models for everblight.

Also thank you for the Armies of Immoren it is amazing.

I like Armies of Immoren, but I switched to Tabletop Commander and use the
printouts for damage grids in top loading protective sheets.

http://www.tabletopcommander.com/

Did Armies of Immoren also print damage grids?

The problem with the Thead at lower points, is that it's a huge part of your army. Most people can neutralize one model - Knockdowns, Disruption, even just doing a Lock on it. But, that's a problem anytime you take a 150+ model at less than 750 points. It can work well, but if it gets shut down (not necessarily destoryed, just made ineffective), you're probably going to lose.

I think the Thead works best with Haley. There's some debate if using him with Kraye and Strangeways lets you move 10" and Pulse, since Strangeways can make that a magic attack, and Kraye's spell only specifies the model can't make a ranged attack.

Ya I just couldn't pass up the Thead for 5 dollars, ya know. Even if I don't end up using him it is still a great deal for a tremendous looking model.

I am so tempted to go out and buy myself a Hordes/WM armie but I am stiffleing my self (which is never good lol), but I really need to see how many people pick this game up. I love the system for Hordes/WM it is a lot quicker pace and you risk alot more with each decision. Sadly if it doesn't take off here I have pretty much no one to play against =( and I will have wasted money on models I won't be able to really use

NICE! Thanks Mal I like Tabletop Commander much better.

malfred wrote:Did Armies of Immoren also print damage grids?

Yes it does. I have to take the Tabletop commander for a spin, AoI does everything I need it to do so I haven't checked the competition.

Zhetsuken wrote:I have read pretty much all the available info on Cygnar and I am seeing it really isn't an army for beginners, I like a challenge but after 40K, Warmachine is such an odd experience something with a more gentle learning curve will better suit me lol.

I think you are having a culture shock with more experienced people here giving you too much information. The cygnar is not harder faction to use than others in WM/ Hordes but it does have some limitations on effective builds. The WM/ Hordes is a game of synergies and combos and it has a lot for you to learn before you know the game. Start with small games of 350 with a friend and work the game out. It's fun to learn by playing and in that kind of environment the armies don't have to be so mean.

Cygnar was my first army, I started with the humble battle box and worked my way from there. I bought the skorne line as the Hordes was published, but have yet to play with them as the Cygnar keeps giving me challenges and competitive force.

Metsuri wrote:
I think you are having a culture shock with more experienced people here giving you too much information. The cygnar is not harder faction to use than others in WM/ Hordes but it does have some limitations on effective builds. The WM/ Hordes is a game of synergies and combos and it has a lot for you to learn before you know the game. Start with small games of 350 with a friend and work the game out. It's fun to learn by playing and in that kind of environment the armies don't have to be so mean.

Cygnar was my first army, I started with the humble battle box and worked my way from there. I bought the skorne line as the Hordes was published, but have yet to play with them as the Cygnar keeps giving me challenges and competitive force.

Cygnar is also more of a shooting oriented army to which I am trying to steer away from, though i know you can make some decent Closecombat lists with cygnar it isn't something they excel at.

Legion of ever blight, and Khador seems more or less to be what I am looking for, Legion being more so since it is as fast as it is.

I will continue to read as much as I can and try to figure our what will best suit my play style

In Prime, and even somewhat in Escalation, Cygnar was the 'shooting' faction. That's no longer true. In fact, I don't even own Longgunners anymore and I've never fielded my Gun Mage unit.

Cygnar has two excellent melee units - Stormguard and Swordknights (which need support from a jack to be at maximum effect). Precursor Knights are an interesting option, and if you're playing against undead, are gold. In addition, Stormlances are arguably the best cavalry unit in the game. Trenchers (in particular with the UA) can be effective melee troops if they get their Bayonet Charge off - gives each model basically two attacks.

The disadvantage is that Cygnar really doesn't have a cheap throw-away unit like other factions.

dietrich wrote: Cygnar has two excellent melee units - Stormguard and Swordknights (which need support from a jack to be at maximum effect). Precursor Knights are an interesting option, and if you're playing against undead, are gold. In addition, Stormlances are arguably the best cavalry unit in the game. Trenchers (in particular with the UA) can be effective melee troops if they get their Bayonet Charge off - gives each model basically two attacks.

The disadvantage is that Cygnar really doesn't have a cheap throw-away unit like other factions.

This is true and the storm lances aside from being very point costly are amazing, however it just seems to me that Cygnar lacks any kind of strong melee synergy. This statement is based on what I have read and seen played it may well be that it is in fact incorrect, this is just from my experience.

Plus after playing around with hordes I really like the fury mechanic more than focus not to mention animus abilities add a large amount of flexibility.

So I am going to devour as much of the unit descriptions on the battle college wiki and see which army interests me the most as far as play style, as well as model choice.

Look at mercs for synergy and combos too. The Piper of Ord is wonderful merc solo.

Zhetsuken wrote: it just seems to me that Cygnar lacks any kind of strong melee synergy.

This is not true, there are a lot of melee synergies in Cygnar, not so much as with Skorne, which is the melee synergy faction, but still enough for some nice moves. But...

Zhetsuken wrote:So I am going to devour as much of the unit descriptions on the battle college wiki and see which army interests me the most as far as play style, as well as model choice.

You are on the right track here. This is the way you should go forward in selecting faction. My friend started Cryx because he liked bane's and then selected the rest of the base army based on the looks. Only compromise he made was the inclusion of bone chicken, which he doesn't like but are essential for most Cryx casters.

So I'm not going to force feed you details on Cygnar, get yourself familiar with the factions and start collecting those which please you the most, both in look and play side.

Ya Wm/Hordes is sucha new experience for me I am still really unsure where exactly to start. I really enjoy about 85% of the models their sculpts are just fantastic. I do want to get a 360 point force chosen and ordered in the next week so I can start getting some real games in, demos with the battle boxes aren;t a good show of what makes this game so amazing IMHO.

Perhapse I should start a different post asking for advice on what faction to begin with =/

Zhetsuken wrote:Perhapse I should start a different post asking for advice on what faction to begin with =/

What kind of army do you want to play? Mobile, Close combat oriented, more big stuff or infantrymachine...
What kind of victory are you trying to achieve? Assassination or objectives...
Is it necessary for the list/ faction to be really competitive or are you more for the looks?
And I assume that you are now drawn more to Hordes?

Close combat would be ideal, I do want my list to be competative it is just my nature I do very well at 40k tournaments and i would like to do the same with WM/hordes.

Assasination is my primary concern but i want to be able to play within the confines of an objective mission should the scenario call for it.

Looks always come second for me, i prefer utility first and foremost.

I really like the way fury works rather than focus as well as animus abilities on warbeast is just amazing for comboing different models.

Zhetsuken wrote:Close combat would be ideal, I do want my list to be competative it is just my nature I do very well at 40k tournaments and i would like to do the same with WM/hordes.

Assasination is my primary concern but i want to be able to play within the confines of an objective mission should the scenario call for it.

Looks always come second for me, i prefer utility first and foremost.

I really like the way fury works rather than focus as well as animus abilities on warbeast is just amazing for comboing different models.

Skorne are the most close combat oriented faction, but have had some problems with competitiveness. They are supposedly gotten a good boost in Metamorphosis though.

Your wish for competitiveness eliminates Trolls from the equation. All the other factions fit to these. Then you need just look for the combos between the factions and think about the composition. Everblight and Circle tends to favor hit and run, Skorne attrition. All are good choices, I chose Skorne on the looks only.

Look into Everblight as they have great movement and some obvious combos in Melee and Assassination.

Trolls can be competitive. The problem is that they have a few really good casters (Grim, Grissel, and eMadrak, and it looks like the new gypsy troll), but the rest just don't cut it.