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Well I was trying to fit a lot into the title and it's because I have a few questions.

First I will say that I've started playing WM/Hordes and chose skorne because there are literally zero skorne players in my area. It's not an ultra-competitive enviornment and when building my list I'd like to know what is viable (but not ideal), what is the competitive option, and what is simply unplayable. My first list will be 500 points (what everyone is playing here casually) and I've sort of gravitated towards Makeda for my lock.

First question regards the Karax. I see almost every list include a unit of swordsmen and the consensus seems to be that karax are inferior. I don't see why this is. It seems like the synergy of Makeda and shield wall (not to mention the Krea) really makes these a rock hard unit - couple that with the fact that they are immune to AoE and that it cant deviate through them and I fail to see how they aren't great. Even something as simple as using the swamp gobbers to fog-em (to which they are immune - i think?) seems great. I can see why you'd want swordsmen in a AG-oriented list but pound for pound the Karax looks like, on paper, the superior unit. Why isn't it?

That being said here is the list I've thrown together, I really welcome your critiques as well as advice on how to make it better, and particularly why particular choices are better.

Archdominar Makeda
Malik Karn
Basilisk Krea
Agonizer
Praetorian Karax [x10]
Paingiver Beast Handlers [x4]
Ancestral Guardian
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew

If Karax really aren't playing I would replace them with 10 swordsmen and a feralgeist (the only thing I can 'fit in').

The list I had built before this took a Rhinodon instead of the krea, 2 infantry, and the swamp gobbos. The Idea being that the beasts could flank the karax in base to base with the karax to avoid AE and could counter-charge anything that charged one of them.

I know some of this might be amateur. I've read the books and the forums to some extent but I haven't had any real experience beyond a quick 350-point game vs cryx.

Thanks for any and all advice you can offer.

I've never compared Karax to Swordsmen more to Cetrati and the main difference between them is their ability to kneel and then have Venators open up behind them.

Apart from that they don't in my lists have that much going for them but in yours with Makeda and a AG stick to Karax.

Brimstone wrote:I've never compared Karax to Swordsmen more to Cetrati and the main difference between them is their ability to kneel and then have Venators open up behind them.

Apart from that they don't in my lists have that much going for them...

When comparing them directly to swordsman:

Cons

-1 Attack
~10% more expensive for a full unit
-1 MAT

Pros

+5 Armor (Shieldwall)
Reach
Set Defense
Immunity to AoE (to the unit, and conferred to anyone in B2B)
AoE can't deviate through and instead fizzles against the immune Karax

They just seem like a more 'tech' and defensive unit when the swordsmen fall like leaves. They are small-based 10-strong single-wound infantry, which in my mind makes them more similiar to the swordsmen than the multi-wound, 5-strong, medium based elite Centrati. And for an increase of roughly 50% more points you lose your AoE invulnerability and the ability to shoot through them. I think the karax are still viable soul-suppliers for the AG whereas the cetrati are simply too expensive to be considered expendable.

Can someone please explain to me WHY the Karax is a bad unit?

brimstone wrote: ...but in yours with Makeda and a AG stick to Karax.

Is my list competitive and viable? is there anything you see as something I simply couldn't deal with?

I'm still learning Skorne (I don't play against them much, and my army is a very basic Xerxis
brick), but I can say about the Rhinodon with the Karax is that no one is going to try to deviate
anything onto a Rhinodon. If they shoot at it, they will use a big gun.

People compare Cetrati to Karax, I think, because they have similar roles rather than
similar builds. Armored advance = Cetrati or Karax. In Shield Wall we're talking about Armor 22 vs.
Armor 21. Those Cetrati are not worrying about blast damage anyway.

I think the karax are great with Makeda and decent with others. Centrati are good because they just don't die, but don't really do much else. Swordsmen are good for cheap souls or chipping away at beasts and jacks if you manage to make it there alive.

I think the real reason people take Cetrati is the fact they are tough to kill. Standing at ARM16 base and 5 damage boxes means that most light infantry wont cut through them. They are a expensive unit, but that's the price you pay for elite infantry. They have P+S12 weapons with CMA, and on a charge that goes up +2. Add in a high MAT and reach and they have a chance to cripple a jack or beast.

Karax are good. I've never really heard anyone say they are bad. I believe the fact that people play Swordsmen over them is the strike ability, since they can auto inflict one wound instead of trying to hurt them. Karax are only P+S10, so this means they are only for light infantry. They are a great unit and work well with Makeda, but unless you are using ranged units behind them, I would still go with the Swordsmen.

I don't think they are bad as they have their place in the army, but as the figs are expensive and compete for the same role as the Cetrati people don't field them much.

Cetrati also have Set Defense (it's not listed in the book).

Cataphract Cetrati
link ^ top

Erratum: Primal p.140 : Set Defense
Add the following ability to the War Spear:

Set Defense – A Cataphract Cetratus gains +2 DEF against charge and slam attacks originating from his front arc.