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If anyone has ever seen that sequence in Pee-Wee's Big Adventure where Pee-Wee is rescuing the animals in the pet store from a fire, and he keeps looking at the snakes in disgust before finally grabbing them, that's what I've been doing with Warmachine/Hordes. Sweet run-on sentence. Mostly because of page 5 in the Warmachine Prime book I got a few years ago.

However, the Hordes models are looking pretty good to me, so I think I'm going to finally grab the snakes. I have two questions...

The first might sound dumb but I've been away for a while so I don't know. I've heard that when Mark 2 comes out that the games will no longer be compatible. Does anyone know why this is so?

The second is which faction to play. I'm thinking of something more defensive and the least technological. No, I don't have a pair. I don't care whether I have a pair or not. I know the Trollbloods are tough, but that might not translate to the most defensive tactics necessarily.

Humorisk wrote: so I think I'm going to finally grab the snakes.

*snicker*

The first might sound dumb but I've been away for a while so I don't know. I've heard that when Mark 2 comes out that the games will no longer be compatible. Does anyone know why this is so?

The point differences, mainly. In MkII, an expensive warjack costs 13 points. But I wouldn't worry about non-compatability. January is when Warmachine MkII officially comes out, and around that time, probably the same month, the Hordes MkII Field Test will come out too. The time WM and H will be non-compatable will be minimal.

The second is which faction to play. I'm thinking of something more defensive and the least technological. No, I don't have a pair. I don't care whether I have a pair or not. I know the Trollbloods are tough, but that might not translate the most to defensive tactics necessarily.

Trollbloods have a lot of cast off Cygnaran weaponry, making them the most technologically advanced Hordes race. They don't have anything like Storm Glaives, but their guns are pretty good. They are, however, probably the faction most suited for defensive tactics. They do the 'brick' tactic better than anybody else in the game and also have some good denial tactics.

Welcome to the Machine!

Humorisk wrote:If anyone has ever seen that sequence in Pee-Wee's Big Adventure where Pee-Wee is rescuing the animals in the pet store from a fire, and he keeps looking at the snakes in disgust before finally grabbing them, that's what I've been doing with Warmachine/Hordes. Sweet run-on sentence. Mostly because of page 5 in the Warmachine Prime book I got a few years ago.

However, the Hordes models are looking pretty good to me, so I think I'm going to finally grab the snakes. I have two questions...

The first might sound dumb but I've been away for a while so I don't know. I've heard that when Mark 2 comes out that the games will no longer be compatible. Does anyone know why this is so?

The second is which faction to play. I'm thinking of something more defensive and the least technological. No, I don't have a pair. I don't care whether I have a pair or not. I know the Trollbloods are tough, but that might not translate the most to defensive tactics necessarily.

MK1 Hordes is incompatible with MK2 Warmachine. However as oomie so kindly points out, once MK2 WM is officially "released" the "beta" for Hordes MK2 will be released so the games can continue to be interchangeable. In my local group, we still play MK1 vs. Hordes and will do MK2 "beta" pickup games when we set them up. I suspect this is the case in most WM/Hordes communities.

As far as factions go, they're all going to fit roughly the same kind of metric in terms of technology. Trolls have actual firearms as opposed to Weird Venator guns (Skorne), Crossbows/Magical Pew-Pew Rocks (Circle), or Archers (Legion). There isn't one race that's really "high tech" compared to the others though.

In terms of defensive armies, that's mainly Skorne and Troll style territory. Circle plays the "avoidance" defense game well at times depending on the army where you can engage but retreat quickly, or deny retaliation, though that's not nearly as universal across the faction. Generally Circle/Legion play more offensively due to their speed, but both Trolls and Skorne can get "fast enough" to pull tricky offensive things out if they wanted.

From what you're saying as your preferred playstyle I'd recommend Skorne or Trolls. Here's a quick breakdown:

Trolls - They take hits very well, and on the counter attack, they kill you.
Skorne - Some units can take hits very well, but the ones that die can be used against the opponent/buff your survivors. They will also kill you on the counter attack, but they can also be surprisingly offensive given the right buffs, etc.

Page 5 turning you off is a warning indicator. It can be summarized as: "If you can't handle losing (often because of your own shortcomings), you need to find a different game."

If you don't like that statement, you'll save some money by getting into any number of other kinder gentler diversions out there.

I know it sounds cocky but seriously people are going to beat you senseless in this game, and you are going to have to try to do the same to them. That's the nature of the game - and the essence of what page 5 is trying to convey. Though the emphasis on male anatomy does go over the top I agree.

Defensive tactics for Hordes is a toss up between Circle of Orboros and Trollbloods. Circle can be defensive by creating terrain, slowing the opponent down, teleporting around, hiding, and then springing ambushes. Trolls are defensive by forming fortresses of models with overlapping protective buffs - and just generally being tough to begin with.

I caution players against starting with a defense mindset in the game because it's MUCH easier to play offense when you are new. Tuning yourself for offense, you only have to worry about what you can kill - and then it's up to your opponent to either deal with you or die trying. Tuning yourself for defense, you need to be aware of all the varying ways your opponent can get around your defenses, and have a plan for those. Then you'll need to have a plan for how to beat them on top of that. It's not that it's necessarily harder to do, but playing defense does require more knowledge of your opponents capabilities.

"The best defense is a good offense. You know who said that? Mel, the cook on 'Alice'." - from the classic song, "Boot to the Head."

Trolls are defensive in the 'don't have a glass jaw' sense. They're really more about beating the stuffing out of something though.

Legion - fast and deadly
Circle - fast and deadly
Skorne - combined arms, tend to move medium speed
Trolls - slow and brutal

Thanks dudes. Moz you make some good points. The thing with page 5 for me was the chest-thumping tone of it, not so much what it implies about the games. I got enough of that sort of language in high school, I figured I was past that. It's weird too because I heard an interview with Matt Wilson once where he seemed really down to earth and pleasant, not the type who'd use language like that. Also the pointless jab at plastic models. Needless to say I wasn't surprised to hear about impending Warmachine plastics.

That's why I kept shrugging off the game. I'm a really casual player, more of a painter really. I never really liked most of the Warmachine models, but I've been looking over Hordes models lately and I think they're top notch.

I realize I'll get my butt kicked, particularly at first, but it's okay. I've had a losing record in Chess my whole life and I still get to sleep at night. As long as the Privateer players are for the most part polite and fair, which I have a feeling they are, despite the vibe I get of them being a more competitive lot.

So that all being said, the low-tech thing is more of a modelling choice. In terms of the models it looks like Circle is the lowest tech. But I can always convert to get a bit more of a feral look. I could also go for a less troops-heavy army, as it seems like they are often the ones carrying guns.

I probably should have said "evasive" instead of defensive. I get the impression sitting back behind cover is usually a pretty bad idea no matter who you play.

Here's my take on Page 5. It's somewhat in jest, but it's also somewhat in response to the GW tourney scene with comp scoring. There was a lot of nerd rage at the time about Comp scoring and broken armies (at least that I recall about 40k). To me, Page 5 was more of a, "bring a legal army list, play, win or lose, but don't whine." Kinda like, "there's no crying in baseball."

Humorisk wrote:Thanks dudes. Moz you make some good points. The thing with page 5 for me was the chest-thumping tone of it, not so much what it implies about the games. I got enough of that sort of language in high school, I figured I was past that. It's weird too because I heard an interview with Matt Wilson once where he seemed really down to earth and pleasant, not the type who'd use language like that. Also the pointless jab at plastic models. Needless to say I wasn't surprised to hear about impending Warmachine plastics.

That's why I kept shrugging off the game. I'm a really casual player, more of a painter really. I never really liked most of the Warmachine models, but I've been looking over Hordes models lately and I think they're top notch.

I realize I'll get my butt kicked, particularly at first, but it's okay. I've had a losing record in Chess my whole life and I still get to sleep at night. As long as the Privateer players are for the most part polite and fair, which I have a feeling they are, despite the vibe I get of them being a more competitive lot.

You'll do fine then. My worries for your enjoyment of the game are largely alleviated.

I probably should have said "evasive" instead of defensive. I get the impression sitting back behind cover is usually a pretty bad idea no matter who you play.

Circle is perfect for the evasive playstyle. Legion of everblight can handle speed and avoidance pretty well too.

Since courteous players are a big factor for you, I would also go down to the local store and watch some games. See how they treat each other during the games, etc. It'd be a shame for you to dive into the game only to find out the local players are scumbags.

Most people I've met though are pretty friendly and about typical for table top wargamers. Then again maybe I've been lucky.

Unfortunately I'm not very close to a game store. I might have to try and find people on Dakka or risk rape and murder and look on Craigslist (gulp).

I'm going to read Primal a little first and paint a few test models, but I'm definitely leaning toward Circle now. The golem-like creatures are totally up my alley. Knowing the way I've been with 40k I'll probably end up playing all four and a half at one point or another anyway.

And yeah, I think I have Page 5 in a better context nowadays. Not only is it in jest, but it was their way of carving out a niche at the time. When you're starting up a company that's a tiny little insect and there's a giant tyrannosaurus rex like GW in your business, you have to do something to stand out. And it's pretty smart business to pinpoint all those things that annoy people about the current regime and say "we're not that." I think we have a president now who won an election that way.