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Hi,

I played a game against Vlad for the first time monday. He is a real piece of work. Usually denny can take all casters pretty easily (In my Experience), but I could not touch Vlad. Blood of kings made it difficult to hit him. In the end I took out his entire list except vlad and 2 democorp (1 of them down to 1 wound). he took out a node and my bane thralls. I had almost a complete army and managed to block off all but 1 little path for vlad. he walked up on feat turn and beat the pulp out of denny. That guy is fast!!! (15 inch on feat turn with blood of kings!!! that is not even a charge...)

My question is simply how do I stop a caster like this? I can't really tough def 19 with anything in my list (shown in a minute) except canker, but he has enough distractions to keep him busy... (his list also in a minute). Hopefully someone can help me...

My list:
pDenny
-slayer
-deathripper
-deathripper
-cankerworm
-skarlock
pistolwraith
banethralls (6)

his:
pVlad
-destroyer (bombard / axe)
Kovnik
-juggernaut
widowmakers
democorps (3)

thanx for any tips...

greetz

Rav

Bilethralls - just walk up and pop em

Try to cast Crippling Grasp on him (11+ to hit with Blood of kings up) and upkeep it for the rest of the game. Bile thrall purge is unlikely to get through his armour. Use Scourge on him, save low power attacks for other models in his army.

Vlad's feat does not affect him. It only affects friendly Khadoran warjacks in his control area.

i play Vlad and really he is not that hard to kill (maybe because i know his weakness and faults) but how the hell did he charge that far?? he is spd 6 blood of kings add 3 so that 9" unless he cast boundless charge on himself then he can charge 14". who ever you played against is an idiot

Yeah, you know you can also read their cards to see exactly what Vlad could do.

Try out Nightmare. Feat + Crippling Grasp + Prey = Dead anything.

Yup, dunno how the heck he came up with 15inches of movement. base speed is 6 + 3 from kings X2 from feat? OFC the feat doesnt effect Vlad so that doesnt work, just trying to figure out some logic behind it. With those numbers he would move 18inches? Perhaps he thought it doubled his base speed (giving him 12) then he gained +3 from kings, in which case he is mistaken again because the +3 to his SPD would be doubled also.

Some of the rules in warmachine can be confusing and misleading when you first start playing, I know I made ALOT of mistakes when I first started, heck, I still do. It is just part of the game.

mm, looks like I and my opponent both have not read the card well. I thought it said battlegroup... he was playing him for the first time, me first time against him...

This would have prevented the charge and made sure I would be able to hit him with crippling grasp (boosted) and feat in my next turn. then maybe a charge with cankerworm and a few shots with the pistolwraiths. (canker would have had 2 focus and 1 ripper would have the other. pistolwraith still had 1 focus to boost hit...

I was already thinking about using nightmare next time, but I think cankerworm is awesome at taking out khadoran jacks. Hel, this game it took out 2 heavy jacks and the kovnik. (all with a little corrosion help, but that does not make it less impressive for a 75-point model...

I am going to try again and just bring a better army. Probably mech-thralls and biles instead of the banethralls... (don't have knights, or they would be taken...)

thanx for the help...

KingKodo wrote:Yup, dunno how the heck he came up with 15inches of movement. base speed is 6 + 3 from kings X2 from feat? OFC the feat doesnt effect Vlad so that doesnt work, just trying to figure out some logic behind it. With those numbers he would move 18inches? Perhaps he thought it doubled his base speed (giving him 12) then he gained +3 from kings, in which case he is mistaken again because the +3 to his SPD would be doubled also.

Some of the rules in warmachine can be confusing and misleading when you first start playing, I know I made ALOT of mistakes when I first started, heck, I still do. It is just part of the game.

In most cases, stat modifications in WM/H follow the mathematical order of operations. Multiplication/Division always precedes Addition/Subtraction. Assuming Vlad could be affected by his own feat, he would be able to advance 15". SPD 6 x 2(Forced March) = 12. 12 + 3(BoK) = 15in.

If you want to consider a legal scenario, however, try a Khador jack in a 1000 point game with Irusk and Vlad. SPD 4 x 2(Forced March) = 8. 8 + 2(Superiority) = 10in.

Or something completely different. A Hunter and Gorman vs. a Khador jack. ARM 20 / 2(Armor Piercing) = 10. 10 - 4(Rust) = ARM 6.

See I use Karchev alot as he is my favorite caster, so I am used to his turbine granting him +2SPD, which gets doubled when he runs. The equation for running would then look like: (4+2)X2. This is because the wording for running states: Double the model's CURRENT SPD, whereas Vlad's says: Double the model's BASE SPD. Really easy to read over that. So, does that mean that when Vlad pops his feat: Double the BASE SPD of all friendly warjacks in his control area, would they then double the modified SPD if they run? Judging by the order of operations you would, allowing them to run 16inches.

Hey,

this is what I would do. First off, i would try to sacrifice a deathripper to crippling grasp two targets. I would target both his jacks. This will cause his two slow jacks to be even slower. I'm playing by MKII rules..but i believe the rule is the same where if they have a speed debuff, they cannot charge.

so those two speed 4 jacks effectively became speed 2.

This will limit their mobility. If you can get a spell off of vlad, boost the dice and then try to crippling grasp him instead of one other jack.

This will make them much easier to hit AND limit mobility like i said before. If you can, cast parasite to debuff him even more.

when you are ready to strike, I suggest this: walk denengra so that vlad is inside her range of the feat. Pop it to lower all stats. Cast scourge to knock vlad (or whatever jack down). Use skarlock (if he's still alive) to cast parasite if it's not on him already. Have your other troops finish him off. Your bane thralls with weaponmaster should finish those easily or whatever jacks you have left.

He shouldn't have that much of a problem even with blood of the kings.

Also, remember, focus is a scarce (spelling?) resource. You should attack him when he spends focus pumping his jacks and whatnot. If he camps on resource...back up and wait for your time. With those debuffs, he won't be able rush you.

Reminder, you're cryx, you don't have to sit toe to toe with him. If conditions aren't favorable..fall back then wait for the right time.

LordRavurion wrote:Hi,

I played a game against Vlad for the first time monday. He is a real piece of work. Usually denny can take all casters pretty easily (In my Experience), but I could not touch Vlad. Blood of kings made it difficult to hit him. In the end I took out his entire list except vlad and 2 democorp (1 of them down to 1 wound). he took out a node and my bane thralls. I had almost a complete army and managed to block off all but 1 little path for vlad. he walked up on feat turn and beat the pulp out of denny. That guy is fast!!! (15 inch on feat turn with blood of kings!!! that is not even a charge...)

My question is simply how do I stop a caster like this? I can't really tough def 19 with anything in my list (shown in a minute) except canker, but he has enough distractions to keep him busy... (his list also in a minute). Hopefully someone can help me...

My list:
pDenny
-slayer
-deathripper
-deathripper
-cankerworm
-skarlock
pistolwraith
banethralls (6)

his:
pVlad
-destroyer (bombard / axe)
Kovnik
-juggernaut
widowmakers
democorps (3)

thanx for any tips...

greetz

Rav

devaspark wrote:Hey,

this is what I would do. First off, i would try to sacrifice a deathripper to crippling grasp two targets. I would target both his jacks. This will cause his two slow jacks to be even slower. I'm playing by MKII rules..but i believe the rule is the same where if they have a speed debuff, they cannot charge.

so those two speed 4 jacks effectively became speed 2.

This will limit their mobility. If you can get a spell off of vlad, boost the dice and then try to crippling grasp him instead of one other jack.

This will make them much easier to hit AND limit mobility like i said before. If you can, cast parasite to debuff him even more.

Crippling grasp is an upkeep (also true in MK2) and has no AOE. That means only 1 CG can be in play at a time and only on 1 model. Kinda hard to cast it on 2 jacks in singlecastergames...

You are right that it makes maneuvring hard for him, but I can only cast it on 1 jack at a time. The other I could parasite, but I can't stop it from charging...

devaspark wrote:
when you are ready to strike, I suggest this: walk denengra so that vlad is inside her range of the feat. Pop it to lower all stats. Cast scourge to knock vlad (or whatever jack down). Use skarlock (if he's still alive) to cast parasite if it's not on him already. Have your other troops finish him off. Your bane thralls with weaponmaster should finish those easily or whatever jacks you have left.

He shouldn't have that much of a problem even with blood of the kings.

Also, remember, focus is a scarce (spelling?) resource. You should attack him when he spends focus pumping his jacks and whatnot. If he camps on resource...back up and wait for your time. With those debuffs, he won't be able rush you.

Good tips, but Scourge only works when you hit and Wound a model. If you deviate the chance of him being knocked down is very small, even with boosting. And remember, you are still trying to hit def 17, even after feat if he has blood of kings on (which he will have...)

if scourge does not work you can't CG him. and CG without Scourge is likely to miss without boosting (and even with boosting it has a good chance to miss...) if he is knocked down and the banes have a lane of assault(charge or move, does not matter) then he is dead. If he is not knocked down but CG and feat are used and there is no BOK, then chances of hitting are fair (def 16-4 = 12. Mat of banes is 6.) If he has BoK then chances are low at def 15.

All in all i am a bit of a pessimist. I do appreciate the advice, but I do not see it all the same way I am afraid.

devaspark wrote:
Reminder, you're cryx, you don't have to sit toe to toe with him. If conditions aren't favorable..fall back then wait for the right time.

I know I am cryx and should be devious (although I did take out everything he had except Vlad)without a cost that was too high (still had a feat to go and almost all my jacks up and running plus a wraith). I was already forming a nice little plan that involved the wraith and my slayer on a scourged and crippling grasped vlad (CG with skarlock, scourge through a node) But he then made the false move and thumped denny in the face. We both did not see his feat does not work that way...

All in all thanks for the tips and I will see what I can do with them, but remember it is not a perfect world and hitting is not always as easy as you would like... (even foc 7 has a limit...)

LordRavurion wrote:Good tips, but Scourge only works when you hit and Wound a model. If you deviate the chance of him being knocked down is very small, even with boosting. And remember, you are still trying to hit def 17, even after feat if he has blood of kings on (which he will have...)

This is not correct. Scourge KDs every model under the template, regardless if you directly hit or damage them. The bit about damage in the description is to clarify WHEN the KD occurs, not IF. The wording is a bit confusing, but this has been clarified on the Privateer rules forums.

Get an arc node within 4" of Vlad and you cannot miss him with the Scourge template (max deviation of half distance (2") and any size template will clip a small base on a deviation of 2" or less).

mm, another case of must read

will check MK2 rules at home in a while, but I Will keep this in mind... I thought it was erratad to be when wounded, but I could be mistaken (wich does occur every once in a while

If you're playing the field test rules, its even more clear cut.

"Models hit by Scourge are knocked down."