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Tzeentch Daemons
HQ
1 Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
1 Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
1 Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
1 The Masque

Elites
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
3 Flamers

Troops
9 Horrors, bolt of tzeentch, changeling
8 Horrors, bolt of tzeentch
8 Horrors, bolt of tzeentch
6 Horrors, bolt of tzeentch

Fast Attack
6 Screamers, unholy strength
6 Screamers, unholy strength

Heavy Support
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, daemonic gaze
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, daemonic gaze
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, daemonic gaze

Space Marines
HQ
Librarian Epistolary in Terminator Armor

Elites
10 Sternguard, 5 combi-melta, drop pod

5 Assault Terminators w/ thunder hammer, storm shield

Troops
Tac Squad, power fist, multi-melta, melta. drop pod
Tac Squad, power fist, multi-melta, melta, drop pod
Tac Squad, power fist, multi-melta, melta, drop pod
Tac Squad, power fist, multi-melta, melta, drop pod

Fast Attack
Attack Bike w/ multi-melta
Attack Bike w/ multi-melta

Heavy Support
Normal Land Raider

Mission: 4 Objectives
Deployment: Pitched Battle

The objectives were placed almost in a square around the center. My opponent won the role to go first and gave me the first turn. He deployed the land raider with it's terminators in the center with the attack bikes on either side of the land raider.



Daemons Turn #1
For my first wave I chose 3 daemon princes, 2 screamers, and 3 squads of horrors. I got the other half. I suicide dropped one unit of flamers next to the attack bikes who hit. I then tried to use chariots and horrors to try to prevent rapid fire kills of the other 2 flamer squads. Both chariots deviated towards the land raider, one squad of flamers was in the middle, and one squad was on the right hand side. I shot and flamed and killed both attack bikes but was unable to hurt the land raider
KP Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0
Objectives Daemons:1 Space Marines: 0

Space Marines Turn #1
He chose as his assault wave 2 tac squads and the stern guard. The sternguard deployed all the way on my table edge near a squad of horrors, away from any flamers. One pod came down towards the center near where my suicide squad of flamers was at. The other pod came in on one of the objectives on the right side. WIth good drop rolls it looked like he could have toasted 2 out of 3 of the flamer squads. The sternguard killed all the horrors but 1. One tac squad wiped out a 3 man flamer squad, the other tac squad shot and killed a chariot. Because of a bad scatter his termies are in range and proceed to wipe another herald off the face of the err, umm warp .
KP Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 3
Objectives Daemons:1 Space Marines: 0

Now to take a moment here. My opponent is still fairly new to the game and we've been giving him advice on how to build lists, and I was trying to help him with tactics through the game. Before we started I went through every unit in my army and described in detail what they did and what of his they threatened. I still don't know why he chose to go after the chariot's, luckily one of his scatters took him out far enough that he was next to the flamers and had to shoot them (lucky for him that was).

Daemons Turn #2
My reserves come in, I get 1 daemon prince, all 3 horror squads, and both screamer units. The screamers come down to the right of his terminators near the land raider, the other squad comes down to the left of the land raider (about 22 inch's away). The horrors drop on the objective on the northwest side, and the southwest side, the third squad drops in the middle. The daemon prince comes in on the south west side. The flamers jump up and roast both 10 man tactical squads. 2 Horror squads, 1 chariot, 1 daemon prince kill all the stern guard.
KP Daemons: 5 Space Marines: 3
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Space Marines Turn #2
He gets in one tactical squad. They drop in on the flamers that were in the center of the table and kills them all. The terminators load back up in the land raider which moves towards the center (the better move here would have been to go kill the screamers on the right side, it would have taken the terminators out of the fight for a round, but it would have saved the land raider).
KP Daemons: 5 Space Marines: 4
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Daemons Turn #3
I get my last 2 daemon princes in, i put them both in the center. I unload 2 squads of horrors, 2 daemon princes, and 1 chariot into the tac squad killing 8. A unit of screamers charges in and kills one and the last one flees. My other unit of screamers blows up the land raider.
KP Daemons: 7 Space Marines: 4
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Space Marines Turn #3
No reserves come in. The terminators charge my screamers, killing all but one, keeping them nice and safe from my shooting.
KP Daemons: 7 Space Marines: 4
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Daemons Turn #4
The screamers go blow up a drop pod contesting an objective. The terminators kill the last screamer. At this point I had cleared out a zone around the terminators so they had nothing to charge.
KP Daemons: 8 Space Marines: 4
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Space Marines Turn #4
His last tac squad comes in on the southeast objective killing my last squad of flamers. His terminators move up and run.
KP Daemons: 8 Space Marines: 5
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Daemons Turn #5
The screamers blow up another drop pod (the one that just landed). I unload 2 squads of horrors, 3 daemon princes, and a chariot into the terminators killing them all.
KP Daemons: 11 Space Marines: 5
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 0

Space Marines Turn #5
He shoots and kills all the screamers.
KP Daemons: 11 Space Marines: 6
Objectives Daemons: 2 Space Marines: 1

We run out of time and call the game here. Daemons come out with a win.

After game thoughts. The game could have been much closer if my opponent had done just a few things different. He should have been able to kill 2 out of the 3 flamer squads easy and maybe even gotten all 3 on turn 1. He also should have gone after the screamers with his terminators on turn #2. Really the screamers are the only thing that will be effective against the land raider. I also talked to him about his drop pod deployments, I've noticed lots of new players like to line up their squads in a nice 2x5 formation on the drop pod instead of placing around the pod in a circle to minimize template effects (which is the main reason I take the masque). He also kind of hung the sternguard out to dry just because you can deepstrike all over the table doesn't mean you should . I also think he's running too tac squad heavy, so I recommended dropping one of the tac squads, and the 2 attack bikes, and replacing them with either another full up sternguard squad or some land speeders and a dropping dread maybe. If going the other sternguard route, it might be too bad of an idea to take pedro, drop another tac squad and the librarian, and then add in the land speeders.

My list. This was my first time using screamers. I think with the meta shift to mech they are going to become more necessary, I would hever have made it through all the drop pods and the land raider without them. They won't help much against eldar but everyone else it will keep on their toes. On a side note unholy strength is absolutely worthless on them, but I didn't really know what else to spend 10 points on, I'm thinking about just putting instruments on the daemon princes instead. I need to play a couple more games with the masque to decide if I prefer her over the Blue Scribes.

Great report! I was very keen on seeing how it went. I just can't get excited about screamers - how did they not die right away? The fact that they are jetbikes and can't run when they show up leave them all bunched up and my usual IG and marine opponents just blast them back to the warp immediately.

I dunno, maybe it is my deployment with them or something but they have never really done much for me - though to be fair I haven't run them in units of 6 yet. I might give them another shot - if I make that switch we were talking about will give me an extra 90 points to play with and a little juggling I can get 1 unit of 6. It would probably be a decent inclusion for an all tzeentch list in a tourney. I have always regretted not including at least one unit fleshhounds in my all khorne list just as a thematic inclusion.

Anyway, another great report, thanks!

How big a of a unit are you running now? I know you feel about the screamers I've felt the same way for awhile.

I'm not sure if I see them doing a whole lot during games. But what it does do is give me another "threat" against mech armies. So at 2k I have 16 units. So if I get the wave I want against a mech opponent, I'll place 2 screamers, 3 dp's, and 3 chariots. Thats a lot of wounds to get through and it should force decisions on them. If the screamers do nothing but die then that means my 3 dp's and 3 chariot's are more likely to survive.

Against non-mech I plan on using them for movement interdiction or for locking things down in hth. It should take a turn or two for a dreadnaught or fex to chew through 6 4+ invul models.

Plus I don't know about you but a lot of the time I leave 1-2 models left in a unit, and invariably those 2 models run into my horrors and slowly kill them, the screamers will be good for just dumping some attacks in there until a dp can walk by and finish things off, or as they did in the game above, take out that 1 or 2 models that are left.

Interesting battle - thanks for sharing!

Do you get useful mileage out of We are Legion/Master of Sorcery on your Heralds? I can see the attraction, as it lets you put Gaze to work, as well as being mobile Bolt-throwers, but the extra cost always seemed a little steep to me.

(I had a unit of 5 Horrors kill a CSM daemon prince last week; he charged, whiffed with all but one attack, which was saved. The Horrors did a wound, and then he failed his "No Retreat" save. It was glorious!)

Janthkin wrote:Interesting battle - thanks for sharing!

Do you get useful mileage out of We are Legion/Master of Sorcery on your Heralds? I can see the attraction, as it lets you put Gaze to work, as well as being mobile Bolt-throwers, but the extra cost always seemed a little steep to me.

I can't see using a bolt on a chariot herald without it. If I wasn't going to do wal/mos then I would probably do we are legion and breath of chaos and a soul devourer. However, I just think getting your chariot herald close enough to use breath means that he's going to die.

In the game above the first turn all three chariots split fire on the land raider and the 2 attack bikes. None of the bolts did anything to the raider but the gazes destroyed the bikes.

My army lives at between 12-24 inch's away from my opponent. If I can keep someone at that range it usually means I win easily, the more things they get within 12 inch's the harder the game gets for me. I would lose a lot of effective shots without using wal/mos. I'm still very irked that I can't get we are legion for daemon princes.

Thanks for the great batrep Warmaster.

I'm one of the people that has made somnicide hate screamers.

Their problem has three steps.

Step one. Super easy to kill, they land, they don't influence the game, and then you kill them off.

Step two. Any of them that don't die, are STILL hard pressed to do something. Meltabombs was a miss on GWs part. If they had 'tank hammers' or even master crafted meltabombs, that would alleviate the next problem. I always have a unit that I can block them with that I can afford to move 7" with. That just shuts them off. Yes I know they can go over models. But if you screen within 6" of a tank you want to protect there isn't anywhere they can land and declare a legal charge. If they could shoot when they landed, or could hit a fast vehicle, they could sidestep this tactic.

Step three. You've spent lots of points on pure anti-tank. This means you probably didn't feel like you should spend more points on anti-tank, and so you don't. Then step 1 and 2 happens, and you lose the game. So the option is to take screamers AND more anti-heavy tank. And that doesn't add up to a good take on all comers list.

Somnicide and I played a 2k planetstrike game recently, and screamers weren't even exciting hitting automatically against bastions and getting to charge the turn they landed. The reason why, is the same reason why they seem to fall flat in standard missions. I had his charge target screened so he had to land and say go, and I shot him down on my turn.

If you have any tips that you think Som or myself are missing that might bump them up a bit, I'd love to hear them. I wouldn't be surprised if we weren't getting everything we can out of them.

Thanks again for the batrep. Blue demons are pretty scary.

Shep wrote:Thanks for the great batrep Warmaster.

I'm one of the people that has made somnicide hate screamers.

Their problem has three steps.

Step one. Super easy to kill, they land, they don't influence the game, and then you kill them off.

You only have so much shooting in a game. If you spent the time to kill off my 5-6 strong unit of screamers, you didn't kill a chariot herald, or a daemon prince. Which is a win for me. We both know that your mech list isn't really going to go after the horrors until it really needs to. It's adding another "threat" that you need to decide to kill to the list.

Shep wrote:
Step two. Any of them that don't die, are STILL hard pressed to do something. Meltabombs was a miss on GWs part. If they had 'tank hammers' or even master crafted meltabombs, that would alleviate the next problem. I always have a unit that I can block them with that I can afford to move 7" with. That just shuts them off. Yes I know they can go over models. But if you screen within 6" of a tank you want to protect there isn't anywhere they can land and declare a legal charge. If they could shoot when they landed, or could hit a fast vehicle, they could sidestep this tactic.

I agree and I think they are a little too expensive for what they do. They should have been more like 12pts a piece or given the same rules as swooping hawks, but you gotta go with what you've got. Moving that squad of yours 7" means they aren't shooting at me. Or keeping a squad back to defend the tank means it isn't getting within rapid fire of my horror squads or other stuff. And that's also one of the reasons I have I always have either the scribes or the masque in my list. I don't see a lot of people using the masque, but I guarantee you the first time it happens to you it hurts. And then comes the agonizing decision, do you take that full sized squad and shoot the masque or do you take it and shoot the squad. Basically I'm going for target saturation.

Shep wrote:
Step three. You've spent lots of points on pure anti-tank. This means you probably didn't feel like you should spend more points on anti-tank, and so you don't. Then step 1 and 2 happens, and you lose the game. So the option is to take screamers AND more anti-heavy tank. And that doesn't add up to a good take on all comers list.

They have a very important role against horde armies. Their job is to turbo-boost up 24" and delay something for a turn. Kind of like what you do with your devil dogs just a lot cheaper and not as survivable. And I'm putting them in my list because I don't think the 9-10 bolts and 9 breath templates I have aren't ENOUGH anti-tank . They are also there to tie up or go after the 1-3 guys that are invariable always left when I use flamers, and those 1-3 guys always seem to make it into horrors and kill them all off!

Shep wrote:
If you have any tips that you think Som or myself are missing that might bump them up a bit, I'd love to hear them. I wouldn't be surprised if we weren't getting everything we can out of them.

Thanks again for the batrep. Blue demons are pretty scary.

Part of it, I think, is the points level that you and Somnicide play at. At 1750 you are still filling out the "core" tzeentch shooty list. And honestly I don't know if just 1 squad of screamers is enough. How big of a squad is Som fielding? or how many squads. I don't think you can do a small 3-4 man squad, I feel more comfortable with 5-6. Here would be my version of a 1750 list. At 1850 I add in a second squad of screamers, and maybe drop a horror to bump them both to 6 man squads.

HQ
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
1 Herald of Tzeentch w/ chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
1 The Masque

Elites
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
3 Flamers

Troops
7 Horrors
1 Horror w/ bolt of tzeentch

7 Horrors
1 Horror w/ bolt of tzeentch

6 Horrors
1 Horror w/ bolt of tzeentch
1 changeling


Fast Attack
5 Screamers

Heavy Support
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, daemonic gaze
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, daemonic gaze
1 Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, daemonic gaze

So I'm spending 80 points, at 1750 or a little less than 200pts at 1850 on the screamers. At 1750-1850 you don't really need another troop squad as long as you can keep them back out of the way so 3 is fine. I've already filled up all of my elite, heavy support, and hq. I don't want to bump up the flamer sizes because 4 starts to reduce the effectiveness of your breath on the drop, and unless I absolutely have no good target I always suicide drop my flamers. So I really have nothing else to spend points on except more horrors.

Geez this thing is turning into a long response

So how to get some use out of them? Like you said they do nothing on the drop so you have to make the a future threat. This means I'm going to try to drop them somewhere between 14-18 inch's out from my intended target to force a choice of shooting chariots, dp's or screamers. If you rev your vehicle's up over 6 inch's then I turbo-boost and stop away from you forcing a tank shock (if you tank shock I get the free melta hit, if you wait and unload on them, I've delayed you so it's just as good) or if I'm close enough I move up and assault. If you shoot the screamers, I won, because you weren't shooting chariots or dp's. If you make sure to move 6 I've possibly removed some of your shooting or forced you to move backwards or forwards. Against skimmer transports I'm going to turbo-boost and block exit hatch's, otherwise they will sit on objectives and contest right along with the contesting wave serpents and other skimmers. Against horde's I'm going to use them to movement interdict and finish off small squads. Basically I'm going to force you to deal with the screamers one way or another and that helps to keep other stuff alive for a little bit longer.

Warmaster wrote:You only have so much shooting in a game. If you spent the time to kill off my 5-6 strong unit of screamers, you didn't kill a chariot herald, or a daemon prince. Which is a win for me. We both know that your mech list isn't really going to go after the horrors until it really needs to. It's adding another "threat" that you need to decide to kill to the list.

My biggest counter to this line of thinking is... if I play an army with heavy armor, which bolt of tzeentch can't really touch, then by shooting your screamers off the table, I have permanently eliminated quite possibly the only threat on the table to my big tanks. Chariots, although totally kickass, and in the context of my mechvets, more threatening than the screamers for sure, are a valid target comparison. But If I'm running a couple land raiders full of thundershields, all I have to worry about is the screamers, and then later on, maybe the demon princes.

If you run 3 railgrinders instead of princes, then a land raider army might be forced to ignore the screamers for a while, in order to kill off the real scariness.

For most of your other advice, thanks... definitely putting it into my pipe and smoking it

The one other nitpick is that for screening off movement. That kinda works to an extent, but since they aren't vehicles without weapon skills, units do get a consolidate roll. If you got them in their face, or they were a vehicle that can't charge, or fly over you, then a D6" is certainly better than a move and a run. But if they got some moving and some charge moving and then a consolidate, it isn't really as much of a slowdown as a piranha or devildog wall. Admittedly its the best movement controller we've got in the codex.

I'll get Som to try that list you provided with those tactics. Thanks. good discussion

Yeah i am looking forward to trying that list out - it is something similar to what I have been considering with our other talks.

Would the Blue Scribes over the Masque completely wreck that list? I can drop 2 horrors to make up the points.

Shep wrote:
My biggest counter to this line of thinking is... if I play an army with heavy armor, which bolt of tzeentch can't really touch, then by shooting your screamers off the table, I have permanently eliminated quite possibly the only threat on the table to my big tanks. Chariots, although totally kickass, and in the context of my mechvets, more threatening than the screamers for sure, are a valid target comparison. But If I'm running a couple land raiders full of thundershields, all I have to worry about is the screamers, and then later on, maybe the demon princes.

So if you are only running land raiders and monoliths then I agree with your point somewhat, it's definitely going to be a bit of an uphill fight. Eventually all of the str 8 ap1 shots will do something. But if you are doing the above mentioned with 2 land raiders full of thundershields that's about a thousand points right there, only leaving you 750 for hq and troops. I'd be very tempted to drop screamers and 2 flamer squads or maybe all 3 depending on what else is in your list. The flamers to keep you from shooting, or maybe even immobilizing you if I get lucky. Putting 3-4 targets out there for you to try to eliminate hopefully means something lives until the next turn. But the thing here is that I CAN do something, I have something in my arsenal that can be used against it, it's not an auto-lose situation. Right now there's no terrain out, no building within 18 that I can hide screamers in or something.

Shep wrote:
If you run 3 railgrinders instead of princes, then a land raider army might be forced to ignore the screamers for a while, in order to kill off the real scariness.

For most of your other advice, thanks... definitely putting it into my pipe and smoking it

Soul Grinders bring a whole host of new issues, it's hard to get them to be effective and keep them out of melta range. And right now my list laughs at anti-tank, the most it can do is cause a wound to something. Plus the daemon princes provide the list something I think is more important. They are my dreadnaught protection and my anti-grinder/defiler protection. Without them I am absolutely hosed by them, they also provide good assault for certain things, like banshee's, or tac squads with fists, etc. They are my counter assault and they fulfill the role way better than the grinders will (for the things I'm afraid of).

Shep wrote:
The one other nitpick is that for screening off movement. That kinda works to an extent, but since they aren't vehicles without weapon skills, units do get a consolidate roll. If you got them in their face, or they were a vehicle that can't charge, or fly over you, then a D6" is certainly better than a move and a run. But if they got some moving and some charge moving and then a consolidate, it isn't really as much of a slowdown as a piranha or devildog wall. Admittedly its the best movement controller we've got in the codex.

I think you are thinking too much like this is screening like in your guard army. Remember I have to be within 24 inch's to do anything, and if I want the horrors to shoot they have to be within 18". A lot of the time with a good fleet role, a jump pack or something else the enemy can and will make it to the horrors, being able to run the screamers up at something to keep them from assaulting the horrors is what I need. It's basically at least a 1 turn maybe 2 turn speed bump to allow me to shoot you with horrors and other things 2-3 times instead of only once. Or it hopefully buys me enough time to get a daemon prince over there to finish whatever it was off.

Shep wrote:
I'll get Som to try that list you provided with those tactics. Thanks. good discussion

@Somnicide: From a fluff standpoint I still prefer to put in the blue scribes, go for it and see how it works, I just usually find myself wanting to double pavane things and he never seems to want to co-operate with me. I was asked to build something that I would take to BolsCon and for the 2k points i found myself wanting the masque more, especially since they really have no comp there.

Definitely a good discussion, and the main reason I never posts lists in the army list thread. You need to see how someone is using an army before you can make comments or tweak it. It's probably one of my favorite armies to play. I put it away because people were having a hard time taking it down and I could play around with the new guard codex, but I still really enjoy playing the army. For me that's saying a lot, I have a lot of armies, and normally I can't stand playing the same thing more than 3-4 times before I feel a need to switch it up.

Warmaster wrote:the main reason I never posts lists in the army list thread. You need to see how someone is using an army before you can make comments or tweak it.

EXACTLY! There is far too much bad advice on army lists in that section. Something about reading the batrep before commenting really tempers those responses.

As to the screamers, I'd love to agree to disagree with you, but I'm afraid i can't agree to that.


And on blue scribes. If you managed to make a list that is all horrors, flamers, tzeentch heralds, and tzeentch marked princes, and couldn't find it in your heart to replace masque with a tzeentch special character, then you are a poopy head! (excuse my language. I'm violating rule #1 of dakka too)

We'll pick this up after a couple games with Som. He earned a title shot with his big blue wrecking crew after he embarrassed my dark angels with that fateweaver build.

Shep wrote:
As to the screamers, I'd love to agree to disagree with you, but I'm afraid i can't agree to that.

So my challenge back at you is on my 1750pt list what would you replace the 5 screamers with, and for the 1850 version what would you do differently .

Shep wrote:
And on blue scribes. If you managed to make a list that is all horrors, flamers, tzeentch heralds, and tzeentch marked princes, and couldn't find it in your heart to replace masque with a tzeentch special character, then you are a poopy head! (excuse my language. I'm violating rule #1 of dakka too)

Oh I definitely agree which is why when playing for fun or in any sort of tournament with comp it's definitely the scribes all the way. But if someone wants a more nasty tournament list, then there you go. Plus I really like the fantasy wizard model with the robe's with the half normal face half bird face, and this would be the perfect excuse to paint him up and use him as a masque substitute.

Warmaster wrote:So my challenge back at you is on my 1750pt list what would you replace the 5 screamers with, and for the 1850 version what would you do differently .

Ok, I don't have my book handy. So I'm really guessing at points here. But I thik this is close... plus or minus a couple horrors.

-5 screamers
-1 chariot
-1 masque

+1 fateweaver
+3 bolts on flamers

Fateweaver provided me with a very serious challenge when playing space marines. he took the demon princes from "handle-able" to "time to get the hell out of here." Also late in the game when i redeployed away from the princes, I made a push for horrors. I took some out, and legitimately threatened to clear off Som's troops. But he was able to fly Fateweaver's bubble into range of a full strength horror unit, slamming the door closed on my last chance to win or tie. I have a hard time with fateweaver, that might change as i have more experience with him.

bolts on flamers are nearly mandatory. I'm more confident on that after playing Som and those bolts being the ones that killed me. Those are the bolts getting side and rear armor shots, and it sure beats one more breath when you are landing amidst a bunch of boxes.

Alternately....

-5 screamers
-3 sniper princes

+3 railgrinders
+3 bolts on flamers
+5 horrors with bolt

I'm just so much more scared of railgrinders. Maxing bolts and using those bolts exclusively on mobile multi-melta can keep them alive long enough (in my mind at least) and he is a real heavy hitter. Ultimately more survivable than a T5 prince (unless we are talking fateweaver) and faster to boot. I absolutely respect your position of melta immunity, its totally valid, but I just can't stomach close combat as the only way to kill a land raider. That's partly why I'm not playing much orks latley either

Theoretically speaking, I like soul devourer on chariots, but points get awfully tight for something like that. My guess is, you like it too, but not enough to spend for it.

So thats my answer to your challenge for 1750. At 1850, I'd add one more horrors with bolt unit. At 2000 I'd request a multiple detachment game, and when my opponent refused I'd switch over to CSM. At 2500 I retreat back into the warp, loyalist marines and IG get too much love from the emperor at that size.

In apocalypse I'd take a tetragon and laugh at all of the strength D. (I still carry the scars of that formation) And zachnarakyfalaniayle to annihilate thundershield termies all game. Apocalypse demons are vulnerable to the exact OPPOSITE things that everyone else is vulnerable to. But I'm totally digressing (and flashing back).

Okay my turn to critique! Waay waay off on points! . I can drop screamers, masque, and 1 chariot and fit in fateweaver but not the bolts on the flamers. I do need to give fateweaver a try, I haven't actually used him, I have that same gut feeling that I won't like him that you and Som have for screamers!

The second list you can get everything except the additional horrors. However it leaves you with a serious hole. You have no ability to take out walkers and monstrous creatures. A 6 dread list backed up by speeders would eat you alive. As would the 6 fex list. Other daemon armies with dp's and/or greater daemons would also give you fits. Besides fitting in with my no vehicle theme the dp's give you at least some defence against all of the above.

I do like soul devourer, but I like we are legion and master of sorcery more. Plus I've noticed that if you get within 12" of something with the herald he dies to rapid fire, if you can keep him out of rapid fire he tends to last a long time.

Unfortunately Zachnarakyfalaniayle is the ony forgeworld greater I don't have :(. They didn't have her in stock when I was out in LA. When they release the tzeentch one I'll probably order both of them so I have the full set.

I looked up how much it costs to put a bolt on a flamer and now I remember why I don't do it. A fair comparison would be 90 points for 3 bolts on 3 units of flamers or 6 screamers. I think I know how you would lean on that decision .

Heh fair enough. Great thing about daemons is that different players swear by different units and it is really more about how you use them.

going OT for a second - shoot my or Shep a PM next time you are out in LA - it would be great to get together.