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Found a hint on the characteristics of the 20 primarchs.

From " Horus Rising" page 354-355. :

(speaker=Horus. He = the emperor, Me = Horus )

He told me that the twenty signs in the heaven would one day be matched by twenty sons like me. Each son would embody the character and notion of a particular zodiac group.

--cut--
"I told him i liked Leos, for his regal fury, and skorpos, for his armour and warlike blade. I told himthat Tauromach appealed to my sense of stubbornness, and Arbitos to my sense of fairness and balance."
---cut---
He showed me again the horseman with the bow, ....... The dreadful Sagittary, he said.
Most warlike of all. Strong, relentless, unbridled, swift and sure of its mark.
---cut---
In Anatoly, in his own childhood, the centaur ( sagittarius ) had been a revered symbol.
---cut---
The dreadful sagittary. This is you now, he said to me. ( emp=>horus).


Problem: 20 primarchs = 20 signs. Common used are 12 signs.
Different cultural background to apply here? ( today vs anatoly/persia back then ).

So the emperor told hrous that he has 20 brothers. Thismay look like thuis:

- Horus = Lunar wolves( Sagittarius ).
-Angron =?
-Magnus? =?
-Mortarion =?
-Fulgrim =?
-Dorn =?
-jagatai K. =?
-Corax =?
-Vulcan =?
-Sanguinius =?
-Lion el J. =?
-Perturabo =?
-Lorgar =?#
-curze. =?
-Russ = ?
-gulliman =?
-alpharius/omegon =?


Which Legion/primarch's caracter is which sign ?

- Horus = Lunar wolves( Sagittarius ).
-Angron =?
-Magnus? =?
-Mortarion =?
-Fulgrim =?
-Dorn =?
-jagatai K. =?
-Corax =?
-Vulcan =?
-Sanguinius =?
-Lion el J. =?
-Perturabo =?
-Lorgar =?#
-curze. =?
-Russ = ?
-gulliman =?
-alpharius/omegon = Gemini

- Horus = Lunar wolves( Sagittarius ).
-Angron =?
-Magnus? =?
-Mortarion =?
-Fulgrim =?
-Dorn =?
-jagatai K. =?
-Corax =?
-Vulcan =?
-Sanguinius =?
-Lion el J. = Leo
-Perturabo =?
-Lorgar =?#
-curze. =?
-Russ = Taurus
-gulliman = Libra
-alpharius/omegon = Gemini

Actually if you read on lexicanum they mention what their signs are. Though a few aren't mentioned but you can guess but others aren't as easy
Horus=Lupercal
Lion El'Johnson=Leo?
Fulgrim= The Phoenician
Perturabo=?
Jaghatai Khan=?
Leman Russ= The Wolf(don't know what sign this is)
Rogal Dorn=?
Konrad Curze=?
Sanguinius= In the main rulebook it mentions a constellation called the Wings of Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus=?
Angron=Sagittarius(mentions it being warlike )
Roboute Guilliman=?
Mortarion=?
Magnus the Red=?
Vulkan=?
Corax=?
Alpharius Omegon=possibly gemini?

- Horus = Lunar wolves( Sagittarius ). set per the quote
-Angron =?
-Magnus? =?
-Mortarion =?
-Fulgrim = Phoenix nice idea to insert a mystic creature, any source why?
-Dorn =?
-jagatai K. =?
-Corax =?
-Vulcan =?
-Sanguinius =?
-Lion el J. = Leo
-Perturabo =?
-Lorgar =?
-curze. =?
-Russ = Taurus
-gulliman = Libra
-alpharius/omegon = Gemini
-ferrus m. =? ( forgot him )

Alpharius, russ and gulliman seem a good choice. The lion is maybe obvious or misleading.

Any idea where to get 20 signs from? Actually found only the common 12.
One source i could think of would be ancient mesopotamia ( emperor => anatolia, just a bit north of that location).

@ the unending:
Cant find it on lexi. Any specific page?


PS: i think all signs names are a reference to latin names, but what is "arbitos" ?

Libra, arbitos would be the Scales represented by Libra.

Horus= Sagittarius (due to the amount of sagittarius in your quotes about horus)
Lion El'Johnson=Leo (lion, regal)
Fulgrim=
Perturabo= (aries the RAM, get it )
Jaghatai Khan=
Leman Russ=
Rogal Dorn= Taurus (stubborn)
Konrad Curze=
Sanguinius= Virgo (just seems to fit)
Ferrus Manus=
Angron=
Roboute Guilliman=
Mortarion=
Magnus the Red=
Vulkan=
Corax=
Alpharius Omegon= gemini (twins)

Horus= Sagittarius (due to the amount of sagittarius in your quotes about horus)
Lion El'Johnson=Leo (lion, regal)
Fulgrim=
Perturabo= (aries the RAM, get it )
Jaghatai Khan=
Leman Russ=
Rogal Dorn= Taurus (stubborn)
Konrad Curze=Libra Pre-complete insanity
Sanguinius= Virgo (just seems to fit)
Ferrus Manus=
Angron=
Roboute Guilliman=
Mortarion=
Magnus the Red=
Vulkan=
Corax=
Alpharius Omegon= gemini (twins)

Dorn=Taurus stubborn, immovable

We've got 18 known primarchs and twelve zodiac signs. Unless the Persians knew of six other star signs, this thread is going nowhere.

@corpsesarefun: I also think Sanguinius fits with Virgo somehow. Huh.

The Unending wrote:Actually if you read on lexicanum they mention what their signs are. Though a few aren't mentioned but you can guess but others aren't as easy
Fulgrim= The Phoenician

1hadhq wrote:
-Fulgrim = Phoenix nice idea to insert a mystic creature, any source why?

Any idea where to get 20 signs from? Actually found only the common 12.
One source i could think of would be ancient mesopotamia ( emperor => anatolia, just a bit north of that location).

He didn't mean phoenix, he meant Phoenician - which is a word to describe the people of Phoenicia and also is used to refernce people of culture and bearing (i.e. noble of bearing)

There are indeed only 12 Zodiac signs, but there are about 88 (recognized) Constellations in the sky. Including good ones for primarch association like Aquilla (eagle) and Caelum (sculptor). Leman Russ seems a good connection with Canis Major (or Canes Venatici as Ptolemy would probably have postulated. Probably we should try to limit these to Ptolemy or earlier constellations, since those seem the most likely to be used.

@Thor: As if this weren't guesswork already! The Empra refers to 20 signs. are you telling me that at out of 76 constellations, you're going to identify the six others that he was talking about? Obviously not. So we've crossed the line between interesting hypotheses and wild speculation.

I don't think that Lexicanum gives the Primarch's signs in any case, including Fulgrim's. Fulgrim is also known as "the Phoenician" like Curze is also known as "Nighthaunter" or Russ is known as "the Wolf." Is "The Phoenician" even a constellation?

I don't believe there to be a Phoenician sign (though I'd have to go look). I do believe Ptolemy only identified about...48? So, yeah, that's less, but it's certainly a long battle for that.

Edit: This reply became very long and involves the Tarot - it is now a new thread which can be found HERE

Thor665 wrote:I don't believe there to be a Phoenician sign (though I'd have to go look). I do believe Ptolemy only identified about...48? So, yeah, that's less, but it's certainly a long battle for that.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Are these tarot cards related to constellations?
I'm not sure the used words in the quote are an accident...

Of the 22 "face" Tarot cards 20 of them are directly connected to specific astrological constellations or bodies. The 22nd is "World" and is represented by Earth itself, and The Fool has no sign. So that can make it possible to connect 20 constellations to 20 Tarot cards and also to 20 primarchs.

Dont forget Sigmar!

Angron would be Aries/Mars - the god of war.

Thor665 wrote:Of the 22 "face" Tarot cards 20 of them are directly connected to specific astrological constellations or bodies. The 22nd is "World" and is represented by Earth itself, and The Fool has no sign. So that can make it possible to connect 20 constellations to 20 Tarot cards and also to 20 primarchs.

If it is possible to connect the cards to the constellations, could i ask you to provide this ?

I would like to call attention to the fact that, while 12 zodiac signs are commonly associated with popular astrology, there are in fact a 13 zodiacal constellations. The often ignored constellation is Ophiuchus which, in the classical tradition, is interpreted as the "serpent bearer" and depicted as a man wrestling with a giant snake.


I do not know if this has been previously noted, but a possible connection here would seem to shine a bit more light on the enigmatic symbolism seen on the current edition's cover.


According to an earlier thread ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249424.page) , that is the Emperor wrestling with the two-headed serpent. Being poorly versed in Warhammer's canon, I am unable to make the proper connections, if any exist. Yet, this does pique the curiosity.

Or does it refer to Lacoon?

Soyokaze wrote:I would like to call attention to the fact that, while 12 zodiac signs are commonly associated with popular astrology, there are in fact a 13 zodiacal constellations. The often ignored constellation is Ophiuchus which, in the classical tradition, is interpreted as the "serpent bearer" and depicted as a man wrestling with a giant snake.

Upgrading to 13 constellations might help. But were still searching for 20 primarchs/connected signs.
Maybe add the planets? ( not all of those we know, but those that were known in the timeperiod mentioned by the emperor ).

12 to 18 is not a huge jump when nothing is nesesarily exclusive, indeed, maybe we have some primarchs who incorporate more than 1 constellation.

1 ♈ 0° Aries The Ram "The Agrarian Worker"
2 ♉ 30° Taurus The Bull "The Steer of Heaven"
3 ♊ 60° Gemini The Twins "The Great Twins"
4 ♋ 90° Cancer The Crab "The Crayfish"
5 ♌ 120° Leo The Lion "The Lion"
6 ♍ 150° Virgo The Virgin "The Furrow"
7 ♎ 180° Libra The Scales "The Scales"
8 ♏ 210° Scorpio The Scorpion "The Scorpion"
9 ♐ 240° Sagittarius Centaur The Archer "soldier"
10 ♑ 270° Capricorn "Goat-horned" (The Sea-Goat) "The Goat-Fish"
11 ♒ 300° Aquarius The Water Carrier "The Great One", later qâ "pitcher"
12 ♓ 330° Pisces The Fishes "The Tail of the Swallow",

Manchu wrote:Or does it refer to Lacoon?

That would be the simplest answer of course. If I'm raising conspiracy theory over something obvious, I apologize. I've been given the impression that there is some controversy on the subject. I'm pretty new to the scene here, so I don't quite have my finger on the pulse of the 40k community. If it is simply a reference to Not knowing much of the flavor, however, I wouldn't exactly know how the Emperor would be equated to Lacoon. Perhaps the exodus of IG to the Tau will have negative results for everyone? Beware of Xenos bearing gifts?

Demogerg wrote:12 to 18 is not a huge jump when nothing is nesesarily exclusive, indeed, maybe we have some primarchs who incorporate more than 1 constellation.

1 ♈ 0° Aries The Ram "The Agrarian Worker"
2 ♉ 30° Taurus The Bull "The Steer of Heaven"
3 ♊ 60° Gemini The Twins "The Great Twins"
4 ♋ 90° Cancer The Crab "The Crayfish"
5 ♌ 120° Leo The Lion "The Lion"
6 ♍ 150° Virgo The Virgin "The Furrow"
7 ♎ 180° Libra The Scales "The Scales"
8 ♏ 210° Scorpio The Scorpion "The Scorpion"
9 ♐ 240° Sagittarius Centaur The Archer "soldier"
10 ♑ 270° Capricorn "Goat-horned" (The Sea-Goat) "The Goat-Fish"
11 ♒ 300° Aquarius The Water Carrier "The Great One", later qâ "pitcher"
12 ♓ 330° Pisces The Fishes "The Tail of the Swallow",

Yeah I'm not sure I see which one could be Cancer.

Soyokaze wrote:

Manchu wrote:Or does it refer to Lacoon?

That would be the simplest answer of course. If I'm raising conspiracy theory over something obvious, I apologize. I've been given the impression that there is some controversy on the subject. I'm pretty new to the scene here, so I don't quite have my finger on the pulse of the 40k community. If it is simply a reference to Not knowing much of the flavor, however, I wouldn't exactly know how the Emperor would be equated to Lacoon. Perhaps the exodus of IG to the Tau will have negative results for everyone? Beware of Xenos bearing gifts?

I don't know anything more definite than you. But I would guess that it works on multiple levels. Like you said, be wary of the xenos. But it also refers to deceit, betrayal, and the death of sons.