Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

See if I can post it here without being clubbered to death over it like in another place.

All fluff tell of two things. One is that first foundign chapters have more gear and are "richer" then later foundings and two, chapters are in fact pretty poor when it comes to equipment.

The usual chapter has a battle barge and some strike cruisers, a small handful of landraiders and a few dreadnoughts and it is lucky if it has more then a few dozed terminator suits.
Things like plasma weapons and such are often rare and seldon seen in the field and well, you get the point.

The origins of this are the legions being split up to create chapters and each one took a part of the enormous resources and hardware of its parent legion untill all that remained of the vast stockpiles the original legion once had, was enought to equip the by now chapter sized legion as yet anotehr chapter.

Are you following me and the fluff so far?
Good, now for something shocking then:





The first founding Salamanders legion/chapter!
What we know from fluff, both canon and BL and not challenged by any, is the following:

1: The chapter was almost wiped out on Istvan along the Raven Guard and the Iron Hands first company. Observe, the IH were NOT wiped out, just their first companies.

2: The Salamanders, along with the other two loyalists drop assaulted first in a lightning attack and went in "light" with the other traitor legions behing them being tasked with the setting up of the heavy equipment.

3: There was no significant fleet engagement over Istvan, the loyalists came there rushed, light and fast to catch Horus of guard. The loyalist fleets that were heavily engaged were the space wolfes, white scars and imperial fists and Dark Angels but those had an inter strife loosing parts of their fleet over their own home world. Ultramarines had all their fleet assets locked in with the word bearers.

4: The Iron hands and raven guard subequently split in chapters and as such, those took parts of the legions stockpiles with them.

5: The funny thing is that the Salamanders "just" lost a lot of battle brothers and light infantry equipment.
They were also never split up in chapters due to among other things slow, methodical and careful selection and recruitment MO.

So the anomaly remains, the Salamanders are the only legion loosing mostly infantry and the only legion that never split up, thus keeping all of their vast legion stocks of war materiel.
nothing has changed till the current day (40k) and while all otehr legions shrank to chapter sizes so did the Salamanders with the one and important exception, their wargear, equipment, fleet and mech pool were never touched by any split of chapters taking it away.

6: The Salamanders have very good ties with the mechanicus and are along the Iron Hands the most tech profficient chapters in the Imperium. The few things they cant manufacture and repair themselves they get from the mechanicus.

Thus the logical assumption is that the Salamanders as a chapter are sitting on the single, hands down biggest pool of wargear, armour and equipment pool of all the chapters in the Imperium.
We are told they were the smallest legion of about 10 000 marines and that ought to mean the current chapter has acces to about ten times the war material resources of normal full strenght chapters.

This would mean that what is fluffy in a Salamander army on the TT could be rewritten.
They are already said to be fluffy when they take lots of quality wargear and quality upgrades but could it also mean that they are just as fluffy taking any amount of whatever vehicles, no matter how rare, they would like to?
I think so as more points towards this then not.

What do you think?

You know, I never thought about it. Those are all very good points. I'd say vehicle-heavy Sallies are pretty fluffy but LR spamming is not going to be acceptable to certain gamers no matter how well you argue from background. You might just get the counterargument that the Sallies are more hesitant than other chapters to commit vehicles to the battlefield because of their Mechanicus-like inclinations. A real ass might even say "oh I agree that they'd still have all that stuff, feel free to use every FW pre-heresy LR you have."

Good read OP. All very plausible points. Even if they don't have the full gear stockpile this means they'd be well armed all the same. With their ties to the Iron hands and adeptus mechanicus Maybe they've also collaborated in secret in the past trading such resources as needed to get favors/whatever they need. Vehicles seem doable but land raider spam isn't really that original or interesting.

I am not shocked about the OP's idea.
On the contrary; I'll agree.
The sallies are maybe one of the few SM forces that could do field repairs without "techmarines".

In the old codex armageddon list, the salamanders got some very unique wargear :
- the adamantine mantle ( later distributed to codex Sm )
- mastercrafted weapons for troop-IC
- melta and lance resistant extra armor for LR
- changes in the statline ( taking that back is one of the few good changes today )
- cheaper Termies ( 5 pts? IIRC )

Since those sallies are rather friendly marines, maybe some new chapters were supported with equipment?
Additionally, their training could allow to reproduce material that is rare otherwise, would solve the question where
some newly founded SM chapters get their wargear from.

One does wonder how the endless hordes of BTs get their stuff (although their rules tend to encourage huge footslogging units).

Any Templar usually prays to the emperor for it.....

or on closer inspection, explains the benefits of supporting the emperors cause to the willing mechanicum ally...
or just plunder and pillage and trade the stuff?

No matter how, as long as some heretics and traitors die, all is good.

You make a good point.

However, what about the Raven Guard? Were they responsible for the heavy equipment?

Pyriel- wrote:Thus the logical assumption is that the Salamanders as a chapter are sitting on the single, hands down biggest pool of wargear, armour and equipment pool of all the chapters in the Imperium.

Or that their excess equipment was shared around successor Chapters of other First Founding legions.

Manchu wrote:One does wonder how the endless hordes of BTs get their stuff (although their rules tend to encourage huge footslogging units).

I'd reckon they're smart enough to loot through rubble. They're the most war-like army of them all, I'd guess they've been scavenging since their very first crusade. How else could they support ~5000 troops and enough spacecraft to fly around their entire chapter? They may even scavenge through old CSM stuff, on the other hand that may be considered 'heretical' to go through heretics things.

Cryonicleech wrote:You make a good point.

However, what about the Raven Guard? Were they responsible for the heavy equipment?

They're actual fluff gave them a home base with enough industrial production to equal a forgeworld.
I doubt they have any equipment issues....

To answer my own question about the Templars, I guess I kind of envision the Imperial Fists as a truly huge legion splitting into three chapter sized forces (Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers--although this last one seems aberrational) and the thousands and thousands of others becoming Black Templars. So maybe they started with a huge amount of stuff?

Even more off-topic: How dumb is it that the Soul Drinkers are a Second Founding chapter descended from the Imperial Fists? I really don't get that one.

Why answer your own question? Whats wrong with our answers????

But, about your "vision", the Templars were the most fanatical members of the fists, the crimson fists seem to be the newest members and the imperial fists were those willing to follow gully-mans scribblings.

I dont see a place for soul stinkers there....

So dorn's boys had to defend the palace and follow their primarch into a trap.
Should this not reduce available wargear?

I'd rather go with:

crusade = multiple sources for recruts and equipment

as theory.

Why would being on Crusade mean that you'd have more equipment? You mean that moving around would give them access to more potential sources, right? But this could be applied to any chapter since they all travel all over the place. I'm more on track with OP's idea that the Sallies would have more from the old days, new stuff being pretty few and far between for everyone. I could see the BT splitting off from the Fists with the lion's share (no pun intended) of the Legion's stuff. As was the original point of the BT generally speaking, this would have been one more way to snub the Codex while appearing to comply with it.

but, but , ...everyone LOVES codex astrates..... how could a leader of yellow marines ignore such fine literature

So yes, point is:

Crusading force founds bases, bases support more crusades, found more bases and so on.
Its different to many chapters and their travels, BT may be fleet based but still run a lot of ground-bases too.

Valid point, OP.

They may even scavenge through old CSM stuff, on the other hand that may be considered 'heretical' to go through heretics things.

Well, Marneus Smurfgar hisself got his fists from a chaos champion, and everything he does is apparently ok...

You know, I never thought about it. Those are all very good points. I'd say vehicle-heavy Sallies are pretty fluffy but LR spamming is not going to be acceptable to certain gamers no matter how well you argue from background. You might just get the counterargument that the Sallies are more hesitant than other chapters to commit vehicles to the battlefield because of their Mechanicus-like inclinations. A real ass might even say "oh I agree that they'd still have all that stuff, feel free to use every FW pre-heresy LR you have."

Nono, you dont understnad, I am not advocating for sallie armies to be able to LR spam or be cheesed up and get away with it, I am simply talking pure fluff.

Since those sallies are rather friendly marines, maybe some new chapters were supported with equipment?
Additionally, their training could allow to reproduce material that is rare otherwise, would solve the question where
some newly founded SM chapters get their wargear from.

The points that can be made against my own findings are:
The chapter gave away lots of their equipment pool to other legion/chapter subsequent fundings out of pragmatism, good will etc. This can be true but is nowhere supported or even hinted in any fluff what so ever.

This is however contradicted in the new salamanders novel where they didnt give anything away even to another chapter that is very poor, even prohibiting them to "steal" equipment that to all appearences are not needed anywhere else.

But...lets say that IF the salamanders give away their stuff to others then why should they if tehy are so profficient in manufacturing their gear, even owning an ancient forge ship. If asked they ought to simply manufacture stockpiles to arm new foundings of other chapters.

You make a good point.

However, what about the Raven Guard? Were they responsible for the heavy equipment?

Thankyou
The Raven Guard have according to fluff created subsequent foundings, several in fact and thus their equipment pool would have been distributed to the otehr foundings as well.

Same thing applies to the Iron Hands.

Also the older Raven Guard fluff has them being quite poor with a small vehicle pool and old and worn out wargear due to lack of newer quality equipment.
The new fluff however has changed a lot of this and "now" the Raven Guards even have their own small forge world that can sustain them with whatever they might need.

If fluff is to be followed the Salamadners and Raven Guard ought to be far "richer" chapters then anything else out there including the terra based fists and ultras since neither of them owns their own forge world.

But maybe it is so that they "export" lots of manufactured equipment to otehr chapters?

Or that their excess equipment was shared around successor Chapters of other First Founding legions.

True Insaniak, true.
I just follow what fluff tells, hints or suggests and so far fluff supports this and nowhere the opposite that they give, trade or sell away their stockpile of equipment but as you say, it could be that way.

On another note.
Their enormous stockpiles may also be one of the reasons they are fine with having so "few" marines (roughly 700...which isnt as bad as one thinks), they maybe can afford stricter selection and screening procesess and afford to keep their number down to increase geneseed purity since tehy have so damn much equipment to fall back on should some extreme need arise.
Lets say they faced a full scale nid invasion like the ultras did, they wouldnt have the numbers to stand against the nids as well but maybe they would release a couple hundred landraiders and arm every singel veteran in a TDA suit to compensate and this knowledge gives them assurance to keep the selection process so strict and thus, numbers a little lower then other chapters.
Dunno, just a though.

Could someone of you gous refresh my memory on the Black Templars, how many are they considered to be really, was it 5000 or was it more?

It's a nice idea, but I don't think it works that way. The fluff states the following...

1. Although the fluff makes great use of ancient Rhinos, Land Raiders and such, it also makes it quite clear that any Space Marine legion should be able to manufacture it's own vehicles and war machines. That's why Chapters have a Master of the Forge - because every chapter has a Forge. Granted, the Salamanders 'Ancient Forge Ship' may be older and more impressive than other chapters, but the fluff remains that ANY chapter should be able to make all the vehicles they need.

2. The fluff has spoken about there being ties between certain forge worlds and marine chapters, which would indicate that some chapters are supplied by Forge Worlds.

3. Although the original Legions were split into separate chapters (and thus divided up their vehicle pool), MANY more chapters have been formed since the second founding. These chapters are not neccesarily formed by 'splitting' an existing chapter, rather the chapter is created anew on Mars, but using an original Legion's geneseed (this is part of the reason geneseed is sent back to Mars in the first place). The new chapter is then sent a small amount of veterans to act as command staff and trainers. Who supplies these new chapters? They certainly don't always split up an existing chapter's wargear. The new chapter is provided with new vehicles and new equipment from either Mars, or a Forge World.

In conclusion, although it's certainly more likely that the Salamanders have more heresy-era ancient Land Raiders and Rhinos, it doesn't follow that they have MORE of them, since chapters have been constantly resupplied for ten thousand years...

Don't forget Iron hands are likely not to be stuck for gear with them being one of the closest tied to the adeptus mechanicus. Plus with the unique way they are organised each chapter/clan has its own private production capabilities on their mobile bases on their home world. Anything they cant fabricate is likely available from the mechanicus.

More than 5.000. Page 8 goes about 5-6.000. BT.

Last page of the templar dex map mentions about 7300 BT in different crusades.....

Seems an unknown number of BT exists and the 5 to 6. 000 is just a guess.

Codex Space Wolves says the chapter has approximately one hundred Dreadnoughts sleeping within the Fang. That means each ten Space Wolf Marines can get a Dreadnought accompanying them as a squad leader. Add to that all the tanks the chapter has and I believe they have ten vehicles for every living ten Marines. I have all the reason to believe a lot of chapters have access to nearly unlimited amounts of gear.

I think a few of you are too bent on the idea that Space Marines don't have a constant flow of new vehicles, armour and guns coming in. In the modern background material sure they try to harvest as much gene-seed as they can from their dying battle brothers, but the new Marines replacing the casualties often (not always) get brand new suits of power armour and boltguns straight from Mars. All the Razorbacks and Rhinos and Land Raiders that get blown to bits are eventually replaced by new ones. The Imperium has the STC technology to manufacture this stuff, and they do. Sure the Salamanders have some ages old master-crafted relics they use, but if I was a Black Templar I wouldn't complain as long as the forgeworlds kept me supplied with brand new guns, armour, tanks and ships to ride in.

Concerning the Black Templars, it seems like they are numerically as large as a few ordinary chapters combined. Remember that Space Marine chapters are effectively autonomous organisations that can agree to or disagree with imperial requests (note: not orders) nearly whenever they like, including following or not following the Codex Astartes. There's even examples of loyalist Marines shooting down too inquisitive imperial vessels. Some chapters recruit from a lot of worlds, some from only one. Some are seen as friends and protectors of man and walk openly among people, while others are seen as brooding and distant warriors who get the job done. Some undoubtedly have connections with Mars while others resupply from their own little Empires (for example Ultramarines) or forgeworlds they have agreed to protect. The only limitation is your imagination.