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I am starting Menoth. As of right now it seems like my main opponent will by a Cygnar player.

I have been reading the rulebook and looking at the Field Test Stat cards while I wait for my Menoth Mark 2 Cards.

I noticed a great unit description for Cygnar and Retribution in the stickies. I didn't see a MkII version for Menoth.

I want as much advice as possible about making a balanced Menoth Army.

Are any models "must include"? Any that are weaker then average? I understand that a lot of this is dependent on warcaster.

I had a quick question about the functioning of the Choir. I read the rules to mean that each model could buff a separate warjack as long as they all use the same buff on a given turn. My friend read the rules to mean that the entire unit can only target one jack.

I don't mind shooting. I like shooting, but I prefer melee.

I like buffing my jacks, but I'm really worried about my buff system being torn apart. My friend is also a new player, but is one good at targeting weak points and using his units effectively. If he can find ways to neutralize my support I'm sure he'll do it.

I did a basic search, and all the discussions of Menoth I saw were not with the newest incarnation of the rules - if there are other discussions or strategy articles that would help me, directing me towards them would be appreciated.

I haven't gotten to the Protectorate summaries yet, sorry! Have to finish Khador first...

Choir...same hymn. Each choir member buffs a separate 'jack within 3".

Balanced Menoth Army is tricky. I prefer melee, too. But the slow speed of the army makes
it hard to make it work sometimes.

'Jack Support. Menoth excels at 'Jack support (other than repair at the moment). You're
right to think that your friend, if he's smart, is going to go after that support. It's the
same as anything else. Present him with stuff more dangerous than the choir, the
vassals, or the Reclaimers. Make him decide between killing support and killing direct threats.

A balanced army might look like:

1-2 heavies
2-3 lights
1-2 support elements
2-4 infantry elements

At least, that's how I build my armies. Of course these numbers change according
to the 'caster. Let me see if I can do a quick and dirty rundown for you.

Kreoss- Balanced (almost broken), prefers tarpit and ranged elements

eKreoss- Melee support, prefers melee troops

Severius- Spellcaster, prefers to handle things from afar and cast spells through an arc node

eSeverius- I have no clue how he functions in MK2. Looking at his card I really have to think
about it. He has denial elements, crowd control elements, high CMD for troops, and a LOS
'jack buff. For now, he's my WTF 'caster.

Amon Ad-Raza- Melee 'jack Support. Highly specialized list.

Harbinger- Melee troop support. Highly specialized list. Magic denial, Board control elements and
feat. Joan of Arc feel to her.

High Reclaimer- Troops with a 'jack spell. Denial, Attrition based gameplay. Feat sets up
game winning conditions.

Testament- Denial, Attrition based gameplay. Troop caster as well.

Reznik- Anti-spells 'caster. Mix of battlegroup anti-magic abilities and self buffing melee combat

Feora- Melee warcaster, anti-infantry. Buffs troops mostly.

eFeora- Weird mobility, melee warcaster, anti-infantry. Still buffs troops but also helps her
battlegroup this time around.

Did I miss anyone?

Great info! I like it a lot!

I like pKreoss. I also like the Avatar's models, but I can't tell if I like it's rules. Does not being in the battleforce hurt a lot? It seems to rule out Amon - does the avatar play well with pKreoss? ANy other warcasters that use him more effectively?

Most warcasters play well with the Avatar. You just can't use your free points to use it.

Anything that says Battlegroup does not affect the Avatar, so Mobility, Synergy, Reznik's Witch
Hound, eSeverius's sight spell thing, High Reclaimer's Sacrificial Lamb.

However, what it does is give you spell denial on the warjack (like having a free choir installed), free
focus, Terror, high ARM heavy that can clear out the infantry. It's really a sweet and
awesome piece. Always plan around two focus and anything you get is a bonus.

Reasons to field the Avatar:

You need more focus economy in your list.
You need more anti-heavy melee in your list.
You need something that can operate almost on its own (though I often give mine its own choir)

Don't forget to make the opponent roll for Terror checks, lol.

The easiest way to create a balanced army for menoth is to alternate between things capable of shooting and things capable of fighting up close really well. I'd toss spell slinging into the shooting category.

For example, if you take a melee caster like Feora or Reznik, add a shooting jack like a Redeemer, Reckoner or Vanquisher. If you take a spell slinging caster, add an arc node. The Revenger is also a competent tough melee light. The Guardian is also a pretty scary melee opponent as well as a heavy jack with an arc node. I used to discount it, but then I fought against it.

Between the Deliverers, Cleansers, Knight Errants and Zealots and Sunburst crews, you can have quite a bit of shooting at different ranges.

Menoth has no shortage of good hand to hand.

Don't be too worried about your jack support. They're not invincible, but between hiding behind your jacks and the ability to stay a little bit back, I think you'll mostly be able to protect the choir and any vassals you take. And, as Malfred pointed out, each choir member can cast the hymn the unit is singing on a separate jack.

The biggest problem with Menoth is tha the support stuff is so good you can end up spending too many points on it. Between multiple choirs, reclaimers and vassals, a lot of your points can be sucked up before you buy anything for your army. Striking a balance will be key.

More important than its own choir, the avatar needs its own vassal. It's already immune to magic and has a MAT of like 8, so it's doing pretty well on its own. What really throttles it is something powerful doing multiple hits in one turn, like the Behemoth charging it. A vassal keeps that from happening. Same thing CAN happen with shooting attacks, just not as often.

I really like the Avatar. REALLY like it. Not quite auto-include, but it's a really dangerous beast of a model, and it looks great. Getting reach in MkII made it so much better!

I'm also looking at eFeora as a more jack caster. Her elite cadre and flameguard buffs are nice, but most of her spells seem better used for jacks, and she gets a nice armour buff from them too. I'm imagining a sick list with 3 Vanquishers, a Bonded Redeemer, and then some support. Infantry lists would just get murdered!

So, I'm trying to get to 35 pt list for my first non-quickstart game, I have was considering the following. It isn't a full list and is missing a lot of troops. It may also be too jack heavy for 35 pts...

pKreoss (-5)
Revenger (6)
Redeemer (6)
Vigilant (4)
Avatar (11) or Vanquisher (8)

Max Chior (3)
Vassal (2)



Regarding units, I don't know what is good.

I like Knights Exemplar, Daughters, Examplar Bastions. I don't really like Deliverers from reading them, but if they are effective in play, my opinion could change.

The deliverers are a pure ranged unit. And being inaccuraate they need to either be shooting at something where missing and scattering doesn't matter, be combining their shots, or shooting at something with it's defense reduced (if only pKreoss had a way to knock people down and reduce their defense to 5 against range shots ).

Your list is not too jack heavy. The avatar is obviously very focus efficient and the vanquisher can be as well. The vanquisher is one of the scariest fire delivery systems there is-- especially with a vassal around.

The knights exemplar, daughters and bastions are all great picks.

How does this look:

pKreoss (-5)
Vigilant (4)
Revenger (6)
Avatar (11)

Min Chior (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Covenant of Menoth (2)

Daughter of Flame (5)
Max Knights Exemplar (8)

You must be using an old list to build that.

Knights Exemplar come maxed, you can't buy more, and cost 5 points.

Did you mean Bastions?

Also, the Covenant is a character, not just a solo. He's FA C, which means you can only have 1.

I also don't think you need 2 choirs for the small amount of jacks you're running.

A list like this seems like it should be Avatar [to run autonomously] and maybe the arc node jack for Kreoss and then LOTS of infantry to do your fighting, or go jack heavy. The Vigilant doesn't seem to really fit in this list, and one unit of knights doesn't do much.

Not to mention that this list seems like it would benefit much more from eKreoss than pKreoss. eKreoss works with arc nodes, redeemers, reckoners and the like to knock down and shoot or arc Immolate.

eKreoss works with lots of smashy melee stuff to give it extra attacks that auto-hit. The Avatar trampling under eKreoss's feat is brutal, as are the daughters of the flame. Each daughter guaranteed kills 3 basic infantry. How cool is that! One, maybe 2, knights exemplar on an enemy caster under this feat also completely wreck them. pKreoss just doesn't really seem to give this list of yours anything.

I think the numbers mean the points they cost, not the amount he takes

Knights Exemplar are 5 points.

Yeah, I was going off the trial pdf while I waited on my cards. I will adjust for the lack of ability to upgrade them and I will probably change daughters of flame. I thought they were stealth.

If you're using pkreoss, they practically are. DEF 17 is so hard to hit that the enemy caster will end up devoting a LOT of resources just to take them down. 2 turns of running and they'll be in melee with just about anything, where they're often even harder to hit. Heck 2 turns of running and they're usually in charge range of a caster, FORCING your enemy to deal with them.

Hey guys, Great posts!
A couple of notes I would like to add...
1. The Avatar has an ability that no one has mentioned yet...the GAZE. This, in my opinion, is what makes him so valuable. It has been tweaked a little bit in MK to be a little harder to land, but a bit more potent in effect. It allows you to put a really nice hobble on those high mobility armies, and take away some of the speed disparity that we always seem to suffer from. It also is awesome in combo with the Harbinger's feat, if positioned in the right way, and if you want to spend the points on it.
2. The Castigator has been improved from nasty to SCARY nasty. You pretty much have to destroy him completely to prevent him from using his combustion attack! This, in my opinion, makes him the best crowd control jack in our arsenal. He loses Overheat, but I think it is more than an even trade.
3. IMHO, MkII allows us to use our jacks as they were meant to be used. All of the improvements to their rules make it feasible to field a mostly or all 'jack army at higher levels of engagement, and have a decent chance of winning. I think that with about a 25% investment in support elements (point wise), a 'jack army will be nigh on unstoppable.

as someone who has been on the receiving end of that gaze many times i have to agree it is one of the most powerful abilities the avatar has. protectorate is very denial heavy as a faction and gaze denies free movement.
on top of denying ranged attacks vs. jacks, knockdown to a large swath of the army, successive melee attacks vs. jacks, enemy upkeeps, etc. you can leave an opponent struggling to do anything at all.