Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started Flames of War with a friend of mine from school, and I've decided to play Germans. I really like the aesthetic of German infantry (and it was one of the reasons why I chose the army), and I also was thinking about running a Fallschirmjäger list. After painting the StuG Gs from Open Fire, however, I've been considering running a panzerkompanie; I'm not very good at painting, but the StuGs look decent enough that I could see myself with a fully painted tank army (which is a major draw, honestly).

Obviously, I can't ask anyone to make a choice for me, but I'm wondering the relative strengths and weaknesses of the main German lists in Fortress Europe are. No one at my LGS plays, so I can't really ask around or observe games.

-I love the look of grenadiers, so I'm definitely considering an infantry company. I assume those lists are really static. Are they kinda boring to play?

-Fallschirmjäger are really cool, too, and FV combat platoons seems really neat, but I'm afraid I'd be hopelessly outnumbered (I mean, more than I already would be).

-Panzergrenadiers in halftracks are something that seems interesting, but I don't know much about them.

-Panzerkompanies are obviously cool, but I don't know if they're killy enough. I mean, I'd have like 10 tanks in 1500 points, right?

Most of the FoW advice I've heard is to go to either 'Tanks with a little infantry' or 'Infantry with a few tanks.' basically, avoid the recon formations.

However I just have the main rules and a couple theatre books for FoW, and am not an expert.

The Grenadier lists do allow a fair number of vehicles in the
Divisional Support -- 2 Armoured platoons -- so it can present a fairly active defensive strategy. German infantry platoons are small so you have to be careful when attacking.

Panzer lists can get expensive if you are fielding the best tanks which may leave you lacking points for infantry and artillery.

I have not had much luck with Panzergrenadiers, I find the usefulness of the halftracks (or trucks) does not match the cost.

My suggestion based on what you have said would be to build a Grenadier force supported by the types of tanks/assualt guns you would want in your Panzer force and then you would be able to build up to your panzer force fairly easily

There is one benefit to Fallschirmjager.

You are looking at 9 stands of Fearless Vet infantry. That basically translates into a unit that will not shift out or off of an objective. They are going to be tough to hit, fairly easy to dig in, and hard to break.

It's also the largest base count of any German infantry. You are basically looking at an under strength FJ platoon being equal to a full CV platoon.

Also, panzer units in a panzer army serve a different purpose than those in an infantry army. Your panzer army is going to be attacking most times..therefore, your panzers will need to be pulling dual purpose...attacking and taking objectives, and armor hunting. On a whole, they will be moving up, and as they move faster than infantry, you will be leaving infantry behind.

In an infanry list, you will be defending. The armor you will bring can better stop attacking armor. You will also be able to use anti-tank guns in the same roll.

I think pretty much every infantry list in FE will allow for two armor units.

When you are looking at building a list think of a few things. You want to be able to hold an objective (infantry), fight off armor (tanks or at guns), distrupt and pin (mortars/arty/nebels) and knock down aircraft (your own aircraft, AA guns). The nice thing about the german lists is that you can get alot of dual purpose out of your choices...Flak36s can do AA and AT, panzerfaust infantry or pioneers can do AT. you also have quality and cost effective choices in things like nebels, brumbars, and Stugs.

I see. Well, assuming I don't massively fail at painting up the Grenadiers I bought a little bit ago, I'll probably go with a Fallschirmjager or Grenadier platoon with armored support.

Of course, the question now is which one I want to play. On the one hand, Grenadiers (I think) look cooler, but Fallschirmjager are definitely not without their merits, too. FV across the board makes them really survivable, and looking up their history makes me really impressed.

@duncana
Why do you say go with Grenadiers and not Fallschirmjager? Are you speaking from experience of the lists you've tried out or is there a practical downside to FJ that you know of?


Also, what tanks typically are a solid bet? Right now, I'm considering picking up a platoon of Panzer IVHs, but I'm concerned that they're too similar to StuG Gs in terms of statline. What about Panther As? Are they worth the cost? Or would putting one or 2 Tigers in my list serve me well?

FE book, late war, armor support to infantry....

Stug - Good allround tank. Higher armor than a PIVH, but also one less MG. Its really a personal call there, but the general idea is that, if you aren't alive, that extra MG doesn't really matter, does it?

Panther - scares the bejesus outta folks. Sometimes the only thing an opponent can do agaisnt it is duck and cover. It's downside is that its high points, low model count...most you usually see in a unit is 3, sometimes 4. Very much an "all eggs in one basket" approach. Personally, I like to let the big cats out every once and awhile.

Tigers - strangely, not as scary as a Panther. Lower armor, lower gun. It's one real strength is the side armor and top armor. Those values allow it to enter/support infantry attacks where you wouldn't want to stick a Panther and your PIVs would probably die.

Other thoughts:

King Tigers - Don't expect much more than a immoble pillbox and you will be happy. Big gun, big armor, big cost, slower than spit and unreliable to boot. My experience is it never seems to do enough to justify its cost.

Brumbars - Cheap. Armor of a Tiger. Short but powerful gun with FP 1+. That means what you pen is dead. Slow, but then when you are advancing with infantry and insupport of infantry, speed isn't a huge issue. 4 of them are cheaper than 4 Stugs. Kinda hard to place historically, if that is a concern. My advice would be to look at Anzio and some of the eastern Front in the 1944 time period. IF you can find someplace reliably placing them in Normandy, I would love to hear it.

Hornise/Elefant - When you want to field something exotic with a really really big gun. Never going to be around in large numbers and not going to be an objective taker. Again, look to Anzio and Russian Front for examples in history.

Jagdpanther - nice complement to the 3rd FJ in Bridge to Far FJ list, if that is the direction you want to go. Armor of a Panther, gun off an Elefant. Again, costly enough you usually won't be taking more than a couple, but could, in a pinch, support an assault.

For general, all-round, I would suggest 4-5 Stugs to start with. Look at 3 Panthers next, especially if you face the Russians alot with the IS-2s and ISUs. Wrapping it up, a couple Tigers and I think that is about as much armor you would need to give you some variety.

Paladin Blake wrote:

@duncana
Why do you say go with Grenadiers and not Fallschirmjager? Are you speaking from experience of the lists you've tried out or is there a practical downside to FJ that you know of?

I suggested Grenadiers rather than Fallschirmjager because they are a bit more flexible and can be used in different lists. The FJ look distinctive and might look out of place masquerading as ordinary infantry. I try and make my first purchases for any new army to be as multi-purpose as possible. In game terms I think that the FJ are a really good infantry force and was tempted to paint some up for my clubs upcoming Market Garden campaign (I decided to go with US paras instead)

I think all the late war tanks are solid for the points you pay -- the King Tiger is probably not worth the points but if you are going with that it will be the focus of your list. I would say pick the ones that you like the look of or would enjoy painting -- if your like opponents are heavy tank fans you probably want a Tiger or a Panther but the Hornisse is worth considering (I just picked up 3 of these after seeing them used against my Russians) as a heavy tank killer.

For what it's worth, I'll be using Late War Germans against an American Rifle Company in either Normandy or (more likely) Italy.

Historical accuracy is pretty important, so I'll probably go for that whenever possible. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to using Marders in Normandy, but I'll typically err towards what is appropriate historically.

If you will be fighting Americans you don't need to worry much about heavy tanks -- the various Normandy FOW books have quite a few interesting German lists (and presumably the upcoming book will have some for late war Italy)

I used to run a mid war Panzerkompanie when I first started playing. I found it to be quite difficult to use. I now play late war Panzergrenadiers.

I'm a few odds and ends off buiding a Panzerregiment Bake list featuring lots of (about 6) Panthers and Tigers.

Why'd you find it difficult to use? Is it the same reason Shotgun said (needing each tank to pull a dual purpose) or is there some other reason?

Part inexperience, part difficult to use list. I used to fight British infantry, you just don't have enough models to go round. Te book's been revised since and I've got better at the game (I hope) so maybe it's not such an uphill struggle now.

A Panzerkompanie isn't the easiest list to use, but it can be quite effective once you get used to it. They can also be relatively easy on the wallet, depending on what you decide to go with.

Since you like infantry as well, if you want to go with a Panzerkompanie I would recommend taking some sort of infantry platoon in support, whether it is Pioneers, Grenadiers, or Panzergrenadiers. You'll have to use your tanks as your primary offensive force, and they'll likely be what you use to grab objectives and generally be mobile. You can keep your infantry in a relatively defensive role, or use them to feint towards another objective and just generally cause trouble.

Defense (even if you are the "attacker" in the mission) is likely where your infantry will earn their keep though. Even if your infantry platoon does nothing but sit on the objective all game and keeps your opponent from going after that objective, they have made themselves useful.

Of course, if you decide to go with an infantry company, your infantry will have to attack from time to time, so make sure you take some armor and/or artillery to help support and cover their advance. Smoke is your friend here, so having two or three mortars just for that purpose would be a good idea, and you can take bigger guns like 105s (or even heavy mortars) for actual barrages.

It really comes down to what you want to do. Panzerkompanies and Infanteriekompanies can both be quite effective (and fun!), but they both will play differently.