Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After playing several games with my shiny new Cygnar models, I think I probably have more questions than when I started.

I've been playing with the following:
Haley
Journeyman Warcaster
Ironclad
Lancer
Charger

First, some thoughts about them;

Haley: I'm not sure Haley is going to cut it. Which is a terrible shame, since I just bought the model and painted it to boot. Temporal Barrier does rock, it must be said. Chain Lightning can be effective too. Archane Shield can be useful. Deadeye is not great. Archane Bolt is not great. I'm not sure Scramble is worth the ink it's printed with. The two spells that do work well are very pricey. Haley's feat is pretty good. The biggest problem is she's just so whimpy. At least that's the way it seems. She has trouble staying alive and she doesn't do a whole lot to help with killing the enemy caster. She seems like a support unit rather than a heroine.

JWC: Three focus and not much else.

Ironclad is not shabby. He can hurt things. The Tremor trick doesn't seem as useful as one might think; knock-downs don't make it any easier to damage other 'jacks, just makes it easier to hit. Hitting isn't the problem. So I just bash things, sometimes that is all it takes. The open fist can be terribly useful; locking an enemy's gun arm saved a game once.

Lancer: I was ready to replace this guy with another Charger until today; the cortex killing is quite valuable in some games.

Charger: This guy is usually the star of the show. Powerful Attack is just about the best thing going. This model is a bargain. I have already bought another, although I might not use it until we start playing bigger games. If I did, I would convert the Ironclad into a Defender.

The big questions are these:
1) Do I try another Warcaster? Which one?
2) What models/units to add next? Answers to the previous questions will likely influence the answer here.

I've been thinking a great deal about Long Gunners. So far I've heard widely divergent opinions about them, including;
"Long Gunners are useless"
"Long Gunners are awesome"
"Long Gunners are weak, but can work"
"If you are going to play the Haley turtle, you need Long Gunners"

Since I haven't heard anybody say anything good about the theme, I'm very hesitant to fork out the cash for these guys. But if I continue to play Haley, I think I need all the shooting I can get.

That doesn't necessarily mean Long Gunners. I'm actually thinking about trying the Black 13th first. Mostly because it's only three models to paint.

I've already bought Squire, who can't play in a theme list, and a Gun Mage Captain Adept who can. These two guys together are four points, as is the second Charger. I just know we will bump five points as the campaign escalates, so either way I'm off a bit.

There are, of course, five-point units available. I confess a particular attraction for Precursor Knights.

Despite all the bad press, I can't dismiss the idea of the theme; all those freebies!

In any case, I would love to hear thoughts about Warcasters, and about which models/units to add, or thoughts about scrapping Cygnar altogether and starting, oh, I don't know, Khador. I really like Scorsha!

The keyword in deadeye is "unit". Obviously it's trash to spend 2 focus doing something a jack can do with 1, but entire units of Long Gunners/Trenchers/Gun Mages with the improved accuracy are brutal (literally in the case of the gun mages REF: Critical Brutal). Haley's feat also falls into this realm. Currently your list has 1 ranged jack and a pair of hand cannons, not much. Now imagine some full size units shooting twice.

Haley is actually on the high end of casters, and she certainly does "cut it", but with almost exclusively jacks you aren't getting the most out of her (the same can be true of many casters)

As for long gunners, I don't see a good reason why a unit with their range and CRA couldn't work with Haley. Deadeye and CRAs + the feat seem pretty solid even if you go the whole game never using dual shot. That being said, other units may simply give you more mileage.

Yeah, junior is 3 focus, 3 focus that some other armies would give thier right arm to have. Oh and it's an extra arcane shield. It's a jack your caster isn't required to operate and a good upkeep, you can't ask any more from 3pts without getting greedy.

So first of with Haley, I agree. I'm not a fan of her prime version, but love her epic one. Try proxying the epic Haley, she's got some great skills!

Black 13 is a great choice. They are an extremely versatile unit, and combined with the Gun Mage Captain, you have a great little warcaster assassination team.

While, I see what you're saying about the ironclad, I'm surprised you're not seeing more out of your lancer. The arc node is it's big draw, and every game I play I'm flinging spells out of that thing like crazy.

I don't think you should be dedicated to running Victoria's theme list so much. The unit attachment is worth making your list far less effective.

Ironclads are amazing. They are MAT 7!!!! with the capability to boost. That means everything in the tremor Is going to get knocked down unless you crap roll.
knocking down multiple models is silly good you just need to use it right.

As said before deadeye is a unit buff
Unless you want 4 dice to hit with a defender. Can hit almost anything bar Caine on a hill behind a wall with blur on.

Most of the theme lists are pretty cruddy, only like Nemo's i think is any good. But if you have to use one... Good luck

As for haley's survivablity. She should be pretty much in your deployment zone for the first turn or 2 and just use her huge control radius to channel spells through lancers. No need to move her up just send her for some cover.

Ok, first of all, ignore the theme... Nothing in Haleys theme can compensate the loss of the Squire! 2" extra CTRL (that is huge with TB), an extra focus each turn and the chance to re-roll that chain lightning...

Now, for your analysis, Haley itself isn't an assassination caster like you've already noticed, she is more of an attrition caster, keeping in the back while using the lancer and TB to control the flow of the game. Try to play her like that for a few games. Like someone has already said, you'll change your mind on Deadeye as soon as you start using Gun Mages. Her feet is allot more powerful when you start using units as well.

Ironclad: The Tremor trick like you call it is exceptionally useful to open up lanes for your charger to get at the enemy warcaster. Other than that he is a really solid and inexpensive beatstick.

Lancer: His melee capability is just a bonus, you should use him primarily to extend Haley's range, allowing her to stay back. With that been said, stick an Arcane Shield on it hand he will be allot harder to take down.

Charger: In MK 2 it turned into a pretty useful jack, but is still a focus hog, give him to the Journeyman to save on Haley's focus.

JWC: This guy goes into all my lists if I have the 3 points to spare! Give him a Charger and he just rocks, while the extra AS is also pretty big.

I'm sorry to say that you may have wasted your money on the GMCA, he is a pretty bad solo in MK 2, I would have bought Strangeways if I where you. Also, I would advise you to get Gun Mages + UA before you get the Black 13, they are more expensive, but they go really well with pHaley and are allot more versatile than the B13.

I also like Long Gunners, but the reason almost no one mentions the Haley turtle is because its a pretty boring way to play, Cygnar has access to allot more fun and arguably more powerful strategies than that. It could still be pretty effective though, especially against a less seasoned opponent.

pzbw7z wrote:
Haley: I'm not sure Haley is going to cut it. Which is a terrible shame, since I just bought the model and painted it to boot. Temporal Barrier does rock, it must be said. Chain Lightning can be effective too. Archane Shield can be useful. Deadeye is not great. Archane Bolt is not great. I'm not sure Scramble is worth the ink it's printed with. The two spells that do work well are very pricey. Haley's feat is pretty good. The biggest problem is she's just so whimpy. At least that's the way it seems. She has trouble staying alive and she doesn't do a whole lot to help with killing the enemy caster. She seems like a support unit rather than a heroine.

Scramble is situational. If there's a warjack and you don't want to deal with it
in combat one way or another, and if she has the focus to spare to cast it, then
why not Scramble it?

However, the thing to remember about Deadeye and Temporal Barrier is that
while 'Jacks can always use their own focus to boost for accuracy, most
units don't have a boosting mechanism for attack rolls. Perhaps you're having
trouble using Deadeye because Temporal Barrier solves all your accuracy
problems for you. Well then the other reason to cast Deadeye is to use it
try to land critical ranged effects with trooper models. Finally, something that
absolutely HAS to die at range with a high DEF and no stealth? Cast
Deadeye on a ranged 'jack, boost that first attack roll and you'll be rolling
four dice to hit. I apologize in advance if the dice gods don't love you, but
four dice to hit is usually great odds.

JWC: Three focus and not much else.

Three focus is plenty. While a six inch control area seems limiting, a Hunter's
extended control range means you have 12". How much focus does a Hunter
need? Usually 2. What else does the Journeyman do every turn? He upkeeps
Arcane Shield. I take back what I said. Three focus is perfect, not plenty.

Maybe you're not noticing Arcane Shield because you're not using it to its
full potential. Arcane Shield tends to be used to stack the ARM of high ARM
models. Cast it on an Ironclad or Centurion or Storm Lances or even a
Lancer! Another way to use it is to protect against blast damage. Cast it
on ATGMs or the Black 13th when facing someone with AOEs.

Ironclad is not shabby. He can hurt things. The Tremor trick doesn't seem as useful as one might think; knock-downs don't make it any easier to damage other 'jacks, just makes it easier to hit. Hitting isn't the problem. So I just bash things, sometimes that is all it takes. The open fist can be terribly useful; locking an enemy's gun arm saved a game once.

Knocked down models don't block LOS. If you want to shoot at something
and you position your Ironclad just right, just Tremor that front line.

Lancer: I was ready to replace this guy with another Charger until today; the cortex killing is quite valuable in some games.

The Lancer adds to Haley's spell potential. By casting Temporal Barrier, she
protects it from being swarmed, by giving it Arcane Shield she can make sure
only the heaviest armaments can trash it (however, most defenses will fall
under a giant warjack axe to the face), and by running before casting a
spell, it extends her threat range mightily and leaving a slower enemy with less
time to respond.

The big questions are these:
1) Do I try another Warcaster? Which one?
2) What models/units to add next? Answers to the previous questions will likely influence the answer here.

If you're liking the ranged attack game, then you could go with Siege Brisbane or
Kara Sloane.

You definitely want to include more units to benefit from Haley's spell list. Haley
increases the volume and accuracy of ranged attacks. What better way to take
advantage of that fact than by adding more potential attacks to your army?

Long Gunners, Black 13th and ATGMs are good choices. A squire is huge with
Haley because of everything it does. A hunter for your Journeyman would be
another fine choice. Trenchers add a bit more denial to a Haley list, and some
Assault Charging goodness.

malfred wrote:
Scramble is situational. If there's a warjack and you don't want to deal with it
in combat one way or another, and if she has the focus to spare to cast it, then
why not Scramble it?

Just advising that this might not be a good idea, simply because your opponent gets to choose the final facing of the Warjack, one unlucky dice roll and you'll be granting him a free out-of-turn advance move...

Mastershake wrote:The keyword in deadeye is "unit". Obviously it's trash to spend 2 focus doing something a jack can do with 1, but entire units of Long Gunners/Trenchers/Gun Mages with the improved accuracy are brutal (literally in the case of the gun mages REF: Critical Brutal). Haley's feat also falls into this realm. Currently your list has 1 ranged jack and a pair of hand cannons, not much. Now imagine some full size units shooting twice.

Now that you mention it, it almost seems obvious.

Mastershake wrote:Haley is actually on the high end of casters, and she certainly does "cut it", but with almost exclusively jacks you aren't getting the most out of her (the same can be true of many casters)

Fair enough.

Mastershake wrote:Yeah, junior is 3 focus, 3 focus that some other armies would give thier right arm to have. Oh and it's an extra arcane shield. It's a jack your caster isn't required to operate and a good upkeep, you can't ask any more from 3pts without getting greedy.

All true. I wasn't actually complaining. All my Junior ever does is feed three focus to Charger. I do agree it's worth his cost. I would play a second one if I could!

If you're having problems keeping Haley alive, you can always move the Arcane shield to her on Turns 3+. Between Arcane Shield and Arcane Vortex, Haley is Def 16 (18 against charge attacks), Arm 17, and you get to negate spells at the cost of 1 focus.

Short of getting charged by a Heavy Jack, Haley should be able to survive most things.

Twelvecarpileup wrote:So first of with Haley, I agree. I'm not a fan of her prime version, but love her epic one. Try proxying the epic Haley, she's got some great skills!

I might just do that.

Twelvecarpileup wrote:Black 13 is a great choice. They are an extremely versatile unit, and combined with the Gun Mage Captain, you have a great little warcaster assassination team.

That's what I'm looking for.

Twelvecarpileup wrote:While, I see what you're saying about the ironclad, I'm surprised you're not seeing more out of your lancer. The arc node is it's big draw, and every game I play I'm flinging spells out of that thing like crazy.

I'm usually using most of her focus for Temporal Barrier.

Twelvecarpileup wrote:I don't think you should be dedicated to running Victoria's theme list so much. The unit attachment is worth making your list far less effective.

Me, dedicated? No, just confused.

Is that, "is NOT worth"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seon wrote:Ironclads are amazing. They are MAT 7!!!! with the capability to boost. That means everything in the tremor Is going to get knocked down unless you crap roll.
knocking down multiple models is silly good you just need to use it right.

Knocked-down models just get up. It's really just an inconvenience, a waste of a focus for a jack. Two inches doesn't seem to get multiple models very often. At this point, I don't have anything but the Ironclad that can do serious damage, thus the lack of effectiveness with Quake.

Seon wrote:As for haley's survivablity. She should be pretty much in your deployment zone for the first turn or 2 and just use her huge control radius to channel spells through lancers. No need to move her up just send her for some cover.

Much of the issue is undoubtedly ignorance on my part, every game is a brand new experience. Still, other casters can beat things down, and that sometimes saves games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:Ok, first of all, ignore the theme... Nothing in Haleys theme can compensate the loss of the Squire! 2" extra CTRL (that is huge with TB), an extra focus each turn and the chance to re-roll that chain lightning...

Noted. Still, I might try the theme at 20 points if I can find one cheap unit of LG somewhere. I long to play the Squire, but there isn't anything at three points (or one) that I want. A five-point unit of LG might not be so bad.

PhantomViper wrote:Now, for your analysis, Haley itself isn't an assassination caster like you've already noticed, she is more of an attrition caster, keeping in the back while using the lancer and TB to control the flow of the game. Try to play her like that for a few games. Like someone has already said, you'll change your mind on Deadeye as soon as you start using Gun Mages. Her feet is allot more powerful when you start using units as well.

Maybe Haley will do better in larger games, I can certainly grasp the unit thing. It does seem more difficult to play with Haley at this level than what the other folks are using.

PhantomViper wrote:I'm sorry to say that you may have wasted your money on the GMCA

Well, at least it wasn't much money. I endeavor to buy things from the game stores I play in. I wasn't settled on any unit purchases, so I bought a solo.

PhantomViper wrote:I also like Long Gunners, but the reason almost no one mentions the Haley turtle is because its a pretty boring way to play, Cygnar has access to allot more fun and arguably more powerful strategies than that. It could still be pretty effective though, especially against a less seasoned opponent.

Is there a more effective strategy for Haley? Losing is boring to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:

If you're liking the ranged attack game, then you could go with Siege Brisbane or
Kara Sloane.

You definitely want to include more units to benefit from Haley's spell list. Haley
increases the volume and accuracy of ranged attacks. What better way to take
advantage of that fact than by adding more potential attacks to your army?

Long Gunners, Black 13th and ATGMs are good choices. A squire is huge with
Haley because of everything it does. A hunter for your Journeyman would be
another fine choice. Trenchers add a bit more denial to a Haley list, and some
Assault Charging goodness.

I've gotten some good advice in this thread. I will continue with Haley for the time being and I may try out the big girl version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Endgame wrote:Short of getting charged by a Heavy Jack, Haley should be able to survive most things.

Or Scorsha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the advice, everyone. It's been quite helpful.

Scramble is far more useful early game, IMO, when you can get that 'Jack to run over a good chunk of infantry, or even a warcaster. While KD is less useful against 'Jacks due to their ability to Shake, infantry can be hosed pretty badly if they can't move or attack.

The primary use of TB should really be seen as to effectively increase the MAT and RAT of your entire army by 2, with the fact that it tarpits your enemy as a nifty side effect. RAT 6 is a big improvement for Long Gunners, and MAT 9 Storms can beat face very well.

Posting from work, so I'll see if I can do a more comprehensive post when I get home tonight.

pzbw7z wrote:
Is there a more effective strategy for Haley? Losing is boring to me.

Her feat can be used with either ranged or melee attacks, so you can use her with melee units instead of ranged ones. Of course that would mean getting one of our more powerful warjacks like the Stormclad or the Centurion (blasphemy, I know) and getting melee units instead of the LGs like Stormblades, Stormlances, etc...

The problem is that you're playing Haley without any supporting infantry. She does well with some units, preferrably at least one with ranged weapons. She can run jacks very well, but she's more of a spell-caster than jack-caster. She's not a melee threat, so she doesn't like being exposed to the enemy - without some infantry in your army, it's difficult to protect her.

dietrich wrote:The problem is that you're playing Haley without any supporting infantry. She does well with some units, preferrably at least one with ranged weapons. She can run jacks very well, but she's more of a spell-caster than jack-caster. She's not a melee threat, so she doesn't like being exposed to the enemy - without some infantry in your army, it's difficult to protect her.

That seems to be what everyone is saying. A unit is definitely next.

I'll confess to being a bit worried about all-'Jack armies; how in the world can infantry cope with 20 ARM?

pzbw7z wrote:

dietrich wrote:The problem is that you're playing Haley without any supporting infantry. She does well with some units, preferrably at least one with ranged weapons. She can run jacks very well, but she's more of a spell-caster than jack-caster. She's not a melee threat, so she doesn't like being exposed to the enemy - without some infantry in your army, it's difficult to protect her.

That seems to be what everyone is saying. A unit is definitely next.

I'll confess to being a bit worried about all-'Jack armies; how in the world can infantry cope with 20 ARM?

Pretty damned easily. Dismantle, weapon-masters, Combined Attacks. All of those can very easily put giant holes in heavy warjacks.

Not to mention all-'Jack armies tend to leave nice holes for you to march your assassination runs through.

Tarot wrote:

pzbw7z wrote:I'll confess to being a bit worried about all-'Jack armies; how in the world can infantry cope with 20 ARM?

Pretty damned easily. Dismantle, weapon-masters, Combined Attacks. All of those can very easily put giant holes in heavy warjacks.

Okay, how do Cygnar troops cope with 20 ARM? There's not a weapon master in the lot. I've never even heard of dismantle.

I do see there are some units with combined attacks.

Stormblades - With Assault (assuming UA) and CMA, you can absolutely wreck jacks on the charge. Power 14 shots on the way in, followed up by 2-man CRAs starting at PnS 15, or a lot of solo attacks at 13+3d6? Dead jack in a hurry.

Stormguard - The exact same thing, minus the Assault, and having an easier time with their CMAs due to Ranked Attacks and Reach.

Sword Knights - Flank + Penetrating Strike make big holes in Warjacks if you support them properly, and at least 10 boxes worth of little holes if you don't.

Trenchers - CRA. Nuff said. Almost worth taking for their utility alone, even if your opponent has a full stealth list.

Longgunners - Two shots and CRA. A gimme.

Gun Mages - May not kill the jack, but by the time you're done it won't be close enough to do anything anymore.

Not to mention of course the amount of damage your own 'Jacks are capable of doing all on your lonesome.

Oh, and don't forget the Mercs. Eiryss, Sam MacHorne, etc. Lots of handy options for mangling 'Jacks there.

And worse comes to worse, just charge. Even less stellar melee units can put ripping big holes in things with an extra d6 to damage, and can keep the damn thing tied up for the next turn or so.

EDIT: Almost forgot Stormcallers. Disruption for everyone! Hooray!

And to add to the previous list Aiyanna's spell which add 2 to the damage rolls against a target. Last game I played I assaulted stormblades with UA against a spider jack. It was totalled by the assault shots, the blades didn't get to swing at all.

Get a unit of gun mages w/ UA: deadeye is now worth it's weight in gold.

When i play Haley never leaves home without squire and Reinholdt

To be honest PHaley is one of the only casters I have had any luck stopping some of the Cryx Tier list shenanigans I have been seeing.

When you have Cryx lists ALL w/ stealth and high speed that are getting AD and pre-game moves you are gonna get MAYBE one turn to do anything before you are bum rushed by their entire force ( I played a Goreshade tier full of bane thralls and stalkers that was within mass charge range after the first turn). TB is still the best control spell in the game, especially when faced with highly mobile builds like this that you can't stand off from (thanks to stealth taking away most of your effective shooting).

And that was caster kill. If I had of been forced to play killbox it would have been even more of a nightmare, and without TB against some builds in killbox you have close to zero chance of winning unless you bought a totally hth themed force. IF I wanted to play dedicated hth I'd probably be playing a different faction...

Tarot wrote:And worse comes to worse, just charge. Even less stellar melee units can put ripping big holes in things with an extra d6 to damage, and can keep the damn thing tied up for the next turn or so.

It does look a bit easier for the infantry in melee. I was thinking mostly of shooting, no extra dice to be found.

I suppose Precursor Knights with UA using "Morrow's Name" while charging can make a mess of things.

Thanks for the help.

gun mages w/ UA and deadeye means a lot of dead stealth models when you need them dead.

pzbw7z wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seon wrote:Ironclads are amazing. They are MAT 7!!!! with the capability to boost. That means everything in the tremor Is going to get knocked down unless you crap roll.
knocking down multiple models is silly good you just need to use it right.

Knocked-down models just get up. It's really just an inconvenience, a waste of a focus for a jack. Two inches doesn't seem to get multiple models very often. At this point, I don't have anything but the Ironclad that can do serious damage, thus the lack of effectiveness with Quake.

Charger + Ironclad is an amazing combo. The benefit of knockdown is on your turn not on the enemies. As others have said you knockdown the blockers to open LOS for your ranged units. I used the charger+ironclad to good effect this weekend. The enemy put an AOE slow spell infront of his jack melee blockers and had his caster behind his jack wall. He rightly calculated that the slow kept my Ironclad out of melee charge range, but tremor is a 2" range and can be used on the charge. I charged and tremored with the Ironclad. It knocked two of his blockers. I cast arcane armor and popped Striker's feat to give the Ironclad boosted armor so he would stand up to the retaliation next turn (when the enemy jacks stood up and counter attacked) and then cast snipe on the charger (who had max focus) to get 2 big hits on the now exposed enemy caster. Didn't finish him off, but that round definitely won the game for me. I've got tons of Cygnar models at this point, but the contents of the Cygnar starter box is still a strong choice to include in your battlegroup.

phillosmaster wrote:

Charger + Ironclad is an amazing combo. The benefit of knockdown is on your turn not on the enemies. As others have said you knockdown the blockers to open LOS for your ranged units. I used the charger+ironclad to good effect this weekend. The enemy put an AOE slow spell infront of his jack melee blockers and had his caster behind his jack wall. He rightly calculated that the slow kept my Ironclad out of melee charge range, but tremor is a 2" range and can be used on the charge. I charged and tremored with the Ironclad. It knocked two of his blockers. I cast arcane armor and popped Striker's feat to give the Ironclad boosted armor so he would stand up to the retaliation next turn (when the enemy jacks stood up and counter attacked) and then cast snipe on the charger (who had max focus) to get 2 big hits on the now exposed enemy caster. Didn't finish him off, but that round definitely won the game for me. I've got tons of Cygnar models at this point, but the contents of the Cygnar starter box is still a strong choice to include in your battlegroup.

I get the Tremor idea, and I appreciate the value of all of the starter set models.

Except Striker; I didn't get a starter set, just random models. Haley was the only Warcaster - of any faction - the store had.

Still, I shall look for opportunities to take advantage of Tremor. The Ironclad's Open Fist has been very useful; more-so than Tremor to me.

yeah it's not the be all end all. Tremor is just another tool on his belt. In the above example for instance the open fist power attacks don't really help him.