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After getting my teeth kicked in again, I'm beginning to have serious doubts about my generalship...

First off, I've had lots of success with the following:

Old Rowdy
Defender
Stormclad
Lancer
Charger
Journeyman Warcaster
Black 13th
ATGM
Strangewayes

Marginal success with the following:

Sword Knights (mostly due to their cost)
Ironclad

In particular, I'm having huge amounts of trouble using the "Storm" infantries and the static shooting units. The Stormguard and Stormblades hit fairly hard, and fairly accurately. ARM15 offers marginal protection against blasts and almost non-existent protection at all against MKII enemy shooting. The only problem is that their DEF12 is terrible, and SPD5 means that they are often outmaneuvered. Getting charged, even by cheap enemy troops with MAT5/6 and POW7+3D6 is going to result in a signifigant reduction in the squad's hitting power. The base configuration of the "Blades" or the "Guard" often gets severely depleted (or wiped out before engagement) due to the above issues. At full size, you don't have the worries that they won't have enough guys to hit with - but are committing 1/4 of your army at 35 to this fragile unit. At 6 points, one might consider advancing behind a trencher smokescreen at 6, but again, 6 (~15% of 35) points just to drop smoke is fairly expensive as Trenchers are terribly mediocre at both shooting and HTH for a 6/10 unit AND gives one a problem as you'll eventually need to get the trenchers out of the way otherwise they'll block your Storm Knight charge! My gut feeling too expensive as their survivability is pretty rubbish.

Speaking of Trenchers - their best utility seems to be dropping smoke. They are a terrible firebase when compared to Long Gunners. While more durable due to dig-in, their damage output is hilariously low (low in quantity of attacks, POW and in accuracy) On the other hand, Long Gunners have marginal-to-amazing accuracy, and respectable damage output when STATIONARY, dropping to fairly terrible when moving, combined with laughable survivability. This too on a 6/10 unit. Since the current metagame requires advancing onto objectives, the former seems too expensive as it is generally terrible at dislodging enemies due to its anemic stats, and the later because it looses all its advantages when forced to move.

There's got to be something I'm doing wrong. They appear to be the backbone of the Cygnar armory but for me, the above units never seem to come close to making their points back. The Stormguard in particular - while being great charge blockers, often get killed without killing a single model in return. The Stormblades usually get a few bodies into combat where they're crushed by weight of numbers.

Cygnar seems to be huge on:

Units have high accuracy, low POW, medium to low survivability. (Re: Arcane shield... I've found Arcane shield is only good on jacks and casters. It is not helping any units survive any better considering that it is usually POW10/POW12 things that are killing them.)

Expensive units that are jacks of all trades, masters of none.

Cryx has loads of cheap infantry with terrible stats and loads of elite infantry with built in evasion and weaponmaster.
Menoth has loads of cheap infantry, loads of elite infantry and lots of boosts (offensive AND defensive) from within the units, solos and warcaster spells.
Khador has loads of elite infantry and the Winterguard deathstar.

I'm stuck. I think I need a new world view on this army. Anyone got suggestions?

It a bit hard to comment when you haven't said which caster you are using, but I'll try to give some suggestions. I run the cygnar force with 2 - 3 waves of infantry, with limited jack support.

I've had some good results in using Trencher infantry, but I take a different view to their performance than you. For me they are a advance deployment unit, which is on the table to create a screen and generally be in the way of enemy. I take the minimun unit and they are usually deployed to my weaker flank of the board with the task of holding some area and delaying the enemy. When trenchers are dug in they have respectable DEF and require decent amount of shooting to remove. If enemy doesn't pay them attention I'm content to CRA some models or make a assault to tie some small or medium based enemies. I don't expect them to kill their points or survive the battle.

As for the storm units I keep them in the second wave of my attack. They have some kind of defensive buff on them (Siege's foxhole is a good one) and they await their change to smash face behind the trenchers, rangers or some other expendable unit. I expect them to clear the area they are committed to with assault and together with the UA and ranger RAT buff they pack hell of a punch against both infantry and jacks/ beasts.

One addition to the force I've noticed is indispensable is Lady Aiyanna & Holt. Aiyanna's spell, which gives damage buff to the target is great at helping the to get the low POW of cygnar troops to a decent level.

The 35 point list, I been lately playing with the above tactics is below. The units marked with A) are they third wave, it is the basic siege assassination module. Units marked with B) are the first wave used to distract and block. C) is the second wave waiting the moment to counter punch and the stormsmith is all over the place, grabbing objectives and shooting lightning.

A)
Major Markus 'Siege' Brisbane
Defender
Squire
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator

B)
Rangers
Trencher Infantry (Leader and 5 Grunts)

C)
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt
Stormblade Infantry (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard

Stormsmith Stormcaller

you are correct in saying cygnar infantry are accurate, in fact, almost all of our models are more accurate than their counterparts. we even have electo-leap whis is basically two hits in one and stormsmiths that bypass enemy def all together. if your having success with the ATGM unit then your already doing one thing better than me.

for me the ironclad is a great jack, hes almost as good at a melee beatdown as the stormclad and tremor is wonderful, he just cant take the hits that a jack up front tends to attract. I can see how he has trouble living up to ol rowdy though.
tremor is a great ability for both of them and can knock down high def models to be shot up or clear line of sight.

I'm about the same as you on sword knights, they are an ok tarpit but they dont do anything and trying to line up flank is more trouble than its worth. their ua is a pretty great jack marshal though.

Metsuri has it right. Stormblades are a counter charge unit, and not usually a blocker. Def 12 means they will be hit on average and their armor doesn't stand up most of the time to enemy shooting. Keep them in cover or behind your ranks (like Metsuri said Siege's foxhole is a nice ability to hide these types of units). When the enemy is in charge range then issue the assault order and watch them wipe things out. If you take the UAs then between storm's eye, electrical arc and electrical current you should be dishing out a lot of ranged hurt followed up by electrical arc buffed melee attacks. Also they are immune to electrical attacks so you can spam stuff like chain lighting and energy pulse in their area. Also stormblades are reasonably good at jack marshaling a stormclad if your caster's bettlegroup is getting crowded.

For trenchers they have advanced deployment, desperate pace (from Max Finn), and smoke bombs. They should easily get into position before the enemy. Spend the rest of the game dug in and if you have to move use the UA's order cautious advance to reposition. If you are getting out shot by the enemy use the UA's Sniper, rifle grenades or a grenadier with manual reload to soften them up. If you need more accurate shooting then use Max Finn's Veteran leader ability or your caster's deadeye/snipe spells. Force the enemy to come to you. If the enemy get's in charge range than issue the assault order and lay into the enemy, and then follow up with another good counter charge unit like the stormblades.

@Metsuri: I'd rather not complicate things at this point by adding caster specific buffs. The idea is to fully learn the strengths and weaknesses of a unit without falling back on caster specific abilities as a crutch. Also, your list appears to be 40 points.

For reference I have:

PStryker
PHaley
PNemo
Sloan

I'm wondering what you do against enemy armies that run multiple cheap heavies - especially the damnable 6 point ones. It looks like the list is relying heavily on stormblades to do the heavy lifting. While stormblades are admirable on the charge, unboostable P+S15 is mediocre vs heavy jacks when already engaged. As well, the stormblades are easily depleted by... well anything that gets in their faces, which further dilutes their effectiveness against hard targets.

@phillosmaster: I think that the Assault Order is part of the UA's ability set. Pity.

@all: I have Aiyanna and Holt. I have yet to try them as their points investment seemed prohibitive considering how squishy Aiyanna is. I'll give them a go and report back.

keezus: the list is 35 points. Don't forget the WJ points.

Assault is a UA order for Stormblades but not trenchers. Trenchers get assault standard and therefore can never lose it (to officer assassination), which is one great thing about trenchers.

Also it sounds like you are trying to measure the merit of units in a vaccuum, but cygnar is a synergy heavy army. It's about fielding a good team that supports each other.

As for Stormblades attacking heavy jacks you can use a combine melee attack for those types of encounters. In his list shooting from a Siege/Reinholdt and the defender will lay down some smack on enemy heavy jacks as well. He could always force hammer to knock things back and/or use Siege's spell to summon rough terrain to better set up counter charges.

phillosmaster wrote:Also it sounds like you are trying to measure the merit of units in a vaccuum, but cygnar is a synergy heavy army. It's about fielding a good team that supports each other.

As I've run every other faction in WM, I fully understand how synergy works. I've also had lots of experience FIGHTING Cygnar. In my experience, the strategy I use every time vs Cyngar is:

1. Stop them from shooting. Use terrain, run and engage - as Cygnar's shooters are terrible in melee. In the mean time, either boost your defense if possible, drop smoke or use stealth. Engage arc nodes (if applicable) with whatever you have at hand - I don't much use the Lancer these days as he's awful expensive.
2. Drop AOEs and/or other shooting on their fighty infantry - continuous effects if you can manage it. Slow them with debuffs or difficult terrain.
3. Mop up the depleted force.

With this in mind, I try to arrange in such a way to prevent this predictable outcome, only to find that Cygnar really sucks in the durability and damage output departments.

What I find frustrating is that with Cygnar - the base unit is expensive AND requires "synergy" as you describe. Unfortunately, the unit providing synergy is also expensive. On top of that, most add-ons don't provide additional hitting power, nor more survivability, just more versatility. A great example is the ATGM add on. He gives true sight, which is awesome. It doesn't help the gun mages hit harder, nor live longer. It doesn't improve the help the mages ability to hit normal stuff at all. To make full use of his points, you have to buy a jack for him to marshal, otherwise you miss out on rune shots for your jack. Which is also awesome. Unfortunately, now you have suddenly spent 12-17 points - all of which rest on "The Dude". If he dies, this "cool" configuration drops back to a bunch of guys in T-shirts and an autonomous jack.

If the unit started with mediocre stats, its probably staying at mediocre stats, no matter how much you add to it... if it didn't do its job well before, it probablly doesn't do its job any better, it just does more jobs.

@Malf: OK I see it now. I'm doubling his number of stormblades to two units.

I wasn't calling you a newb. I hope you weren't offended. I just wanted to highlight that most cygnar unit's won't work well on their own.

In any event your counter-cygnar strategy is sound if you can do all the things you said. Cygnar has alot of stuff that can easily get into position before the enemy. The Cygnar general should be dictating where the fight takes place. Finding a good place to hide my counter charge units and presenting the enemy with open terrain for my guns to take advantage of is usually what I'm thinking about pre-turn 1. Even if the rest of my army isn't set up yet when the enemy arrives, my trenchers for example will be there to hold up the enemy until everyone else is in place. This is what I believe Metsuri is talking about with his 3 wave idea.

I play Khador, but play against Cygnar quite frequently. At first, I had a hard time figuring out how to stop Cygnar from shooting me up as I slowly lumbered across the field. Now, I beat Cygnar 4 out of 5 games.

That being said, I have noticed how some of our local Cygnar generals misuse their units...

1) The Cygnar armies I normally play are never aggressive enough with their 'jacks. Sure, you have some awesome guns on your 'jacks, but you also have some really awesome melee weapons on there too. Get the charge on your opponents (against Khador it should be EASY) or you won't be functional enough to swing that hammer.

2) Don't be afraid to lose units. The wave mentality that has been posted here works for every faction (and best for the Protectorate), but you can't get too attached to your models. Things die. It's war. Move on and kill some stuff for yourself. Sure, the Cygnar units are a little fragile, but with spells like "Snipe," long gunners become a hell of a lot more dangerous for an opposing unit camping an objective/mosh pit/square. They may die in the end, but you'll force your opponent to come to you.

@phillosmaster: Not offense all. Thanks for your advice! (and Metsuri's as well)

I'll have a try at the 3Wave - though, I'm not convinced how successful it will be. MKII isn't nearly as infantry heavy as MKI, and most of his front wave stuff is fairly helpless against warjacks. A single defender can't be relied upon to take out multiple heavies. Also, one of the safest places for a heavy to be is to run-engage wave 1. The Cygnar player will need to either sacrifice his unit to free strikes so that his storm knights can charge (and eat countercharge), OR run the risk that the heavy will trample out of combat into combat with the knights anyways... A dicey proposition at best.

I agree that timing is key.

As for losing units... I've been throwing them to the wolves. I try not to have them DIE NEEDLESSLY. I've had huge success in King of the Hill missions where Stryker runs into position, throws huge quantities of disposable bodies between himself and the enemies (and at the enemy caster), (point 1), Feats (point 2) and then wins (point 3).

On an aside re: The Defender. I love this jack, but really, IMHO, he's a frustrating one, as its not all that powerful (or durable) but pays a premium for its statistics AND versatility... (I won't even go into poor old 10 point Stormclad, or Thunderhead... ). I ran a TB Haley 2x Defender + Charger +solos list vs Butcher and 3x Khador heavies in the Fight Club Scenario. While the Destroyer was CRIPPLED (but not killed) in the initial feat fueled attack (4x boosted POW15+2x Boosted POW12+2x Boosted Handcannon)... it took 6 turns to down his Juggernaut. Painful. Really.

My list is actually evolved to current form from the frustration of fighting against Mortenebra Tier 4 list, which is fast and includes nothing but jacks. It has a lot of high strenght attacks especially when you calculate Aiyanna's help into the equation. Cygnar struggles against the ARM 20 targets and I think my list can handle multiple cryx jack it will be in trouble against khador jack heavy list.

Stormblades need to have the UA and some kind of defensive buff on them to be viable. Also having ranger near when doing the assault helps a lot. From your caster list I would run them with pStryker (blur) and pHaley (arc shield).

The point of wave 1 is not to kill heavies, but to move into such a position that Siege and his defender can deal with the enemy sent to kill them or keep them occupied for a while.

When playing with the current set of scenarios I need to have some aggressive unit to move forward to the objectives to prevent loss from scenario and them when that is taken care of I can start to look for assassination possibility or win by scenario. The point of the trenchers is not to trash jacks but to make the enemy to move into good position for you.