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1500 Blood Angels (myself)

-Librarian (Shield/Unleash Rage)
-Librarian (Shield/Unleash Rage)

-5 Honor Guard (2 Meltas, 2 flamers, power weapon)
-5 Assault Troops (remove jetpacks, Melta, Sergeant with infernus pistol, power weapon)
-5 Assault Troops (remove jetpacks, Melta, Sergeant with infernus pistol, power weapon)
-5 Assault Troops (remove jetpacks, Melta, Sergeant with , power weapon)

-Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)
-Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)
-Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)
-Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)

-Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon x2)
-Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon x2)

-Baal Predator (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)
-Baal Predator (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon)
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Daemons - 1500

-Herald of Tzeentch - Beacon
-Herald of Tzeentch - Beacon
-Herald of Tzeentch
-Slaanesh Daemon Prince w/o wings
-Slaanesh Daemon Prince w/o wings

-3 Flamers
-3 Flamers
-3 Flamers

-5 Stingrays (meltabombs)
-5 Stingrays (meltabombs)

-10 Daemonettes
-10 Daemonettes
-10 Daemonettes
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We roll for gametype - 2 objectives
We roll for deployment type - halves
We roll for turn - I win, I allow him to go first
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Turn 1 (his go)

He rolls, and wins his preferred wave, which consists of all three Heralds of Tzeentch, two squads of 5 stingrays, and both Daemon Princes. It's not a whole lot, but everyone one is a wound pit (5 for the Heralds, 4 for the DPs). He deepstrikes everything in, and shoots at two of my Razorbacks with three Heralds - I pop Shield of Sanguinius, but it doesn't matter, because I fail all my cover saves, and one Razorback with a Librarian squad explodes, and another is weapon destroyed.

Here is where we had a mini-debate, which Dakka might be able to settle. I had a Sanguinary Noviate in a Razorback next to the Razorback with the squad that blew up - since the Noviate gives feel no pain, we were wondering if he conferred FnP to the squad inside the Razor blowing up - we rolled off for it - I lost the roll, but it didn't matter as all of them made their saves.

Turn 1 (my go)

This is basically my best turn, and the game does downhill from here. I position my Razorbacks to all get a shot at him - I move all my vehicles 12", so he'd have to hit on 6s with his stingrays, which will hit their targets this turn due to a good scatter. I blow both Predators at the Daemon Prince, hit with all weapons, and he fails all his saves - one Daemon Prince down.

I shoot my remaining two Razorbacks at one of the Heralds (with a beacon), and do two wounds: I shoot the other two Baal Predators (one at each squad) at the Stingrays, and kill 2 in each squad. My Librarian, who is footslogging it due to a blown transport, shoots at the Herald with three wounds remaining, and his squad does two more wounds. I declare a charge, make it, and kill him, hoping to consolidate out of the Daemon Prince's 12" charge range - I make it out.
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Turn 2 (his go)

He starts rolling for his troops to come in - he has a beacon left on one Herald, so nothing scatters - it all just comes in within 6" of his Herald.

He gets one squad of flamers, and two squads of 10 Daemonettes. The flamers paste my Librarian and squad with 12 ignore armor saves/ignore cover flamer shots - yep. His remaining two Heralds immobilize one of the untouched Razors, and another weapon destroys the assault cannon on the other untouched one - so I'm left with one immobilized razor that has a weapon still. His stingrays assault, but hit on 6s, and poop their pants.

Turn 2 (my go)

I don't really have much that can shoot outside of the Predators and Baals. I try to start positioning myself away from the Daemonettes as best as possible, so I can shoot while running. His flamers are outside my LOS, so I have to either shoot the remaining Heralds or a squad of Daemonettes - I choose the Daemonettes (which in hindsight, I realize I should have shot the Herald that had the last beacon to stop the subsequent waves from not scattering).
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Turn 3 (his go)

He brings in two squads of flamers. This turn, I'm utterly destroyed. One of his Heralds pops a Razor, allowing his previous flamers to jetpack up (which I didn't know they had), and flame another whole squad without saves or FNP, and his other Herald gets a weapon destroyed on my Baal, leaving it useless. His other two flamers are right into position due to his Herald being right in my face.

I declare myself beaten, as I only have one Honor Guard squad left that's about to get charged by three squads of fleeting Daemonettes, and two Predators that are about to get charged by 18" charge range stingrays.

------
Looking back

So other than go after the second Beacon herald, I don't know what I could have done. Sure, I can move 12", shoot, and kite him, but his Heralds can follow, and outshoot assault cannons, with five wounds and invulnerable saves.

The thing that utterly destroyed me is the flamers - I completely just had no counter to them. The beacon allows him to turbo boost his Herald up, and since the flamers come in at the end of his movement phase, he can move them 6" from the Herald without scattering, and then flame an entire squad (which on average kills 6 marines without any saves) - essentially meaning he has a 30" flamer template range. After that, he gets invun saves if I shoot them, and can move them 12" and shoot. It seems...unbeatable, especially if he takes three squads of them.

This is still my first month with Marines in general, so I'd appreciate any tips. I'm trying to make this list an all-comers list, so I'm not keen on counter picking (I would have taken fear of darkness on the Librarians, but he said since he's playing Daemons and it would be useless, he wanted me to change it).

Well I havent been Blood Angels too long Either but they are much better in Assault....And one other thing...Did you roll for Red Thirst (Thats a must , Not a decision)

RonanG wrote:And one other thing...Did you roll for Red Thirst (Thats a must , Not a decision)

Of course - I forgot to mention that.

Only one squad got it - but they got pasted by the flamers before they could do anything.

Magnalon wrote:Here is where we had a mini-debate, which Dakka might be able to settle. I had a Sanguinary Noviate in a Razorback next to the Razorback with the squad that blew up - since the Noviate gives feel no pain, we were wondering if he conferred FnP to the squad inside the Razor blowing up - we rolled off for it - I lost the roll, but it didn't matter as all of them made their saves.

You do get the FnP from the blood chalice, the unit counts as being in range if the hull of the transport is in range. When a tank explodes, the hits suffered are taken before the models are placed and before the tank in question is removed, and therefore they get FnP from the hull.

One thing- You say the herald moves and then the deep striking daemons came in? I think that it happens the other way round. All deep strikers come on before movement.
The rules say " At the start of each movement phase except the first, before moving any unit, the player must roll a dice for each unit in reserve" Then, next paragraph, "once all of the units are rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.... Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal"
So I think you were taken advantage of there.
The ref is page 94 of the Black Reach rulebook

Charliedontsurf wrote:One thing- You say the herald moves and then the deep striking daemons came in? I think that it happens the other way round. All deep strikers come on before movement.
The rules say " At the start of each movement phase except the first, before moving any unit, the player must roll a dice for each unit in reserve" Then, next paragraph, "once all of the units are rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.... Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal"
So I think you were taken advantage of there.
The ref is page 94 of the Black Reach rulebook

My friend said Daemons deepstrike at the end of the movement phase. Not sure if that's a codex rule or not.

I have played daemons for a year so have some experience in this. There is nothing in the codex that gives them anything special on their daemonic assault/deepstrikes, mores the pity

Daemons Deep Strike normally.

The Daemonic Assault rule simply governs how they're deployed (roughly half your units Deep Strike on turn 1, but they do it in the normal Deep Strike fashion), and the rest come in from reserves normally. This is explicitly stated in the codex.

Or, if you prefer, "What Charliedontsurf said."

Yeah, if your opponent can point out where he has an exception to the normal sequence of deepstriking in each turn, I'd love to hear where it is. Cause then I'm modeling up some heralds of Tzeentch on chariots.

Yeah, it's beginning of turn. Mind you, in my experience it doesn't matter much. A squad of 3 flamers doesn't need much room to deepstrike in, and are low enough in points that if they do die, it's not a huge loss. Between having the same sort of shooting the horrors do as a back-up, being jump-infantry, a decent invulnerable save, a small footprint, and the deepstrike mishap chart being somewhat forgiving, I deeptstrike my squads about 2 inches out from my opponent, even without a icon to land off of. 1/3 of the time I'm going to hit, and there's a decent chance that if I deviate it's going to be to a spot that either doesn't immediately hurt, is still advantageous, or at least only gives me 1/3 a chance of them dieing. As you've seen, if they do hit, they tend to wipe out a squad or two, each, and nobody really wants to let them survive another round to let them do so again, which means that the opponent isn't shooting at other things.