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So, we got this idea going over in the Grand WAGGH! thread and I thought it would be a good idea to get it going in it's own thread so as not to derail the other and to draw in more eyes to the subject.

Anyway, it seems like there is a large amount of Bay Area player interested in organizing a competitive tournament in the Bay Area.

Ideas so far:

Shoot for a Februrary date (only problem here is the broadside bash is in Feburary, although it is not really a competitive event as it has the largest percentage of soft scores of any tournament I know of).

Located in Walnut Creek or around this area.

What we would need:

TO's/rules judges

Terrain

Boards

Space to play

As stated, I have two mats and enough terrain to cover three tables. not much, but it's a start.

Does anyone else have any terrain they could bring? Anyone willing to volunteer as a rules judge?

Any ideas would be awesome, so let's hear em.

I do not have a car, but if is done near BART/bus lines, I am in.

I love to play but I think I could judge if needed.
I like to nit-pick when not playing.

Would it just be 40k or branch out into fantasy as well? Regardless I'm in full tilt! I have very little terrain, but enough to cover two tables, I'd have to get it painted first.

First- define what you mean by competitive. DaGrandWaaagh was "competitive" according to the actual dictionary definition of the word, but was obviously lacking in some significant factors which you mean to correct. State what your goals for a tourney as simply and clearly as possible before any other planning commences. Your goal or theme for your event should effect everything (down to how much & what kind of terrain etc.). I think that establishing a clear "mission statement" has to come first for anything that follows to be a success.

@Kirsanth
If you live close to Brentwood, I would swoop you up. Or I could get you from a BART station if this pans out. I know all too well the pain of not having a ride.

@Greenbay924
I am no expert on Fantasy and haven't played this edition, but if someone wanted to take the reins on it, I don't see why not?

@theHandofGork
Good point. I don't speak for everyone (this thread is meant to get some ideas flowing) but this would be my idea of how the event would be run:

Depending on our resources either a 1 day, 3 game tournament or a true GT. 2 days, 5 games.

Missions: As close as possible to those out of the book. WHy? They are extremely balanced, simple and fun. But best of all, everyone knows how to play them and can focus on playing the game they know rather than learning wacky new missions.

Comp: If it's legal, you can bring it.

Painting: A separate award goes to best painter. It does not impact best general. Armies do not have to be fully painted to play (to encourage people to come out and have fun).

Sportsmanship: I tend to think adults can resolve their own issues, but a thumbs down, thumbs up approach seems to work well, with clearly defined criteria for what would constitute a thumbs down.

Those are off the cuff ideas, so feel free to come in and throw in your two cents.

The overall objective would be to have a competitive tournament wherein everyone is free to play their army how they want to, with missions that they understand and know. Clarity of rules, scoring and objectives. We want total transparency. Competitive meaning: everyone plays their best list at their highest skill level.

Also, if others are keen to it, implementing a tried and true system such as something like the NOVA Open may work well.

What do people think about true Swiss pairing? That works well with the book missions so long as you impliment tie breakers.

A simple tie breaker for objective missions is KP's and for KP missions, VP's. Simple and easy.

I am ope to any ideas though, so anyone feel free to throw them out there.

Edit: Also, I would be in favor of using the INAT FAQ for simplicity. I know not everyone agrees with all the rulings, but it is widely accessible and eliminates a lot of rules quibbles.

It seems like you want awards (or standing) for best general best paint. What about the traditional best overall? Or some other category? The awards are the players "end goal" for an event, so it seems like nailing that down first is a good idea.

I like following missions as closely as possible out of the book. This is easy w/ a 3 game tournament but in a 5 game tourney you have to cut one of the three standard "types." Which will it be?

In terms of placement system the issue I hear the most whinging about is initial pairings. I have no clue how to easily and effectively resolve the inherent randomness in the first round.

Happy to contribute 2 invites to the NOVA Invitational next year, for this, if you pull it off Reece.
Can't hurt to be able to add to your advertising that a top 2 finish quals you for a shot at $1k

Everything posted sounds good to me, Reecius--even INAT.

As for a ride, BART should be easy enough--I am a bit away in Oakland.

Editing to add:
I do not like best overall, either. /

heh

Good points again.

A system I have played in a tournament which was actually quite good, was to randomly determine mission and deployment before each round, with some modifications.

Round 1, you roll a D3 for mission, and deployment. Next round you roll again but you can not have a repeat of either. Third round you take the remaining combination. In a 5 game GT, you simply recycle the system and it is randomly determined what mission/deployment you will get.

This eliminates any bellyaching as it takes responsibility off of the judges shoulders and puts it on chance.

A best general/best painter/best overall is not a bad idea at all. The more prizes you give out, the happier your attendees will be.

First round pairings in a no-comp tournament are random. I personally have no problem with judged pairings for round 1 in a GT, but then you open the door to subjectivity and hurt feelings, etc. The easiest system that eliminates all subjectivity is purely random first round parings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kirsanth
Yeah no worries, man, I could pick you up at the Bay Point station, it's pretty close.

@Mike
Say what? You are giving out $1K next year? Wow! I was coming to your event for sure next year, but now I wouldn't miss it. That is huge. And yes, any input would be appreciated.

Haha you started a thread. For the most part our group has it covered. But im sure we wouldnt mind a couple more people to help out.

We basically have judges already figured out. It would probably be only a 40k one. Unless that is, if we find another group of people knowledgeable enough to run the fantasy side.

comp there is none.

Painting will be the same as other GT's but just a little lighter in scale. Of course some small changes here and there of our own.. Fully painted armies are wanted.You wont get dinged for not being a Pro painter, if you followed the guild lines and you tried you'll get your points.

Rules and missions will probably be based off the rulebook more or less with added battle points and some small changes.

Thats some of what we got.

We probably will have GW Alamo, and Black diamond games backing us but we will try to find more. Once we get the ball rolling we'll give you a hard set of information. Its just ideas getting throw around at this point.

Thanks for the quick answers! It seems like you have the program down, now all you need to do is formalize the program in writing, find space, make a budget, find sponsors, find volunteers, market, etc. etc.

I'm working on a non-hobby related large event at the moment in the South Bay. If I see any event space in the area I'll send you a pm.

You can definitely count me in. I'm happy to help organize if need be.

As far as Kirsanth and his comment about nit picking, I work with him and he is definitely not lying.

Reecius wrote:@Mike
Say what? You are giving out $1K next year? Wow! I was coming to your event for sure next year, but now I wouldn't miss it. That is huge. And yes, any input would be appreciated.

We're giving out normal swag and prizes at the Open, but we're having an Invitational just prior to it during the convention weekend; quals for it already out to the tourneys taht stand on their own as pinnacle events ... i.e. adepticon, wargamescon, etc.,; Kevin Nash has 2 tickets via his Sprue Posse stuff; could use another 2 west coasters. $1k for Ren Man and $1k for TC at the Invitational next year.

italiaplaya wrote:Haha you started a thread. For the most part our group has it covered. But im sure we wouldnt mind a couple more people to help out.

We basically have judges already figured out. It would probably be only a 40k one. Unless that is, if we find another group of people knowledgeable enough to run the fantasy side.

comp there is none.

Painting will be the same as other GT's but just a little lighter in scale. Of course some small changes here and there of our own.. Fully painted armies are wanted.You wont get dinged for not being a Pro painter, if you followed the guild lines and you tried you'll get your points.

Rules and missions will probably be based off the rulebook more or less with added battle points and some small changes.

Thats some of what we got.

We probably will have GW Alamo, and Black diamond games backing us but we will try to find more. Once we get the ball rolling we'll give you a hard set of information. Its just ideas getting throw around at this point.

I'm a part of Italia's group (as are paintedpotato and spireland) but I think the best date would be April-June. Sometime closer to summer. I think February would be rushing it. Not for the organizing: it would be easy to plan an event during that time. But just for the promotion.

Also, if we want to do this GT style, I think we really need some fantasy, too, which none of us are qualified to run. Anyone interested? I don't just want some random jackass though (like myself). You should have played for years and run tourneys before.

MVBrandt wrote:

Reecius wrote:@Mike
Say what? You are giving out $1K next year? Wow! I was coming to your event for sure next year, but now I wouldn't miss it. That is huge. And yes, any input would be appreciated.

We're giving out normal swag and prizes at the Open, but we're having an Invitational just prior to it during the convention weekend; quals for it already out to the tourneys taht stand on their own as pinnacle events ... i.e. adepticon, wargamescon, etc.,; Kevin Nash has 2 tickets via his Sprue Posse stuff; could use another 2 west coasters. $1k for Ren Man and $1k for TC at the Invitational next year.

Those 2 tickets could help with promoting it.


And yes your right we probably would need a fantasy side. Thats were we would need the majority of our help haha.

Maybe someone from Leadership 2 would be interested in running the Fantasy side.

a1steaks wrote:Maybe someone from Leadership 2 would be interested in running the Fantasy side.

I saw in the other thread you mentioned writing the software that tabulates the scoring...

That would probably be helpful.

Although, possibly even more helpful, can you make websites?

If we want this to be serious, I think we need a website with all of the rules and scoring up about 6 months in advance.

I know that sounds like a lot of time, but we really need to consider every aspect of the hobby. A lot of people would enter just to win best painted, and we have to respect that. And those guys will need time to get their stuff together. But before that, they need to know how they would be scored.

So my general thoughts on this process:

Step 1: find a location and set a date

Step 2: determine exactly what our scoring system will be

Step 3: put that info up on a site

@italiaplaya
Yeah, I started a thread before I saw your response in the other thread.

And I am definitely not trying to steal your guys thunder by any means. If you already have the ball rolling, then go for it. I am happy to help, though as it sounds several people are.

@MVBrandt
Damn, that is awesome. You will absolutely draw in the best players with that system. That is actually really exciting! If we can get a tournament up to standard going here, those tickets would certainly help in promotion.

@Whocares
So, are you guys going to score it traditionally like a GT? Such as battle points, etc? How will you score it? Like 12 points for primary, 5 for secondary, 3 for bonuses? Those systems work well and they are more flexible than true swiss which must have a certain number of players.

February is a bad month for me personally, but that hardly constitutes changing anything.

Let's see, Adepticon is the first weekend of April, Wargamescon is in July/August, and NOVA is in August.

That means the best time to not conflict with any other events would be May or June. End of May, beginning of June would most likely be best to allow some breathing room between big events.

I have two friends fairly high up in Hotel Chains, I will ask them about group rates, ballroom space, etc. See if they can hook up a discount.

As for a website that would be easy. A Blogspot blog or Wordpress blog can be quickly and easily set up. With wordpress we could host the site for the event for cheap and it gives a lot of flexibility.

I'm not a web designer, so I wouldn't want to be in charge of creating a website. I'm happy to start working on some tournament management software though.

Reecius wrote:@italiaplaya
Yeah, I started a thread before I saw your response in the other thread.

And I am definitely not trying to steal your guys thunder by any means. If you already have the ball rolling, then go for it. I am happy to help, though as it sounds several people are.

@MVBrandt
Damn, that is awesome. You will absolutely draw in the best players with that system. That is actually really exciting! If we can get a tournament up to standard going here, those tickets would certainly help in promotion.

@Whocares
So, are you guys going to score it traditionally like a GT? Such as battle points, etc? How will you score it? Like 12 points for primary, 5 for secondary, 3 for bonuses? Those systems work well and they are more flexible than true swiss which must have a certain number of players.

February is a bad month for me personally, but that hardly constitutes changing anything.

Let's see, Adepticon is the first weekend of April, Wargamescon is in June, and NOVA is in August.

That means the best time to not conflict with any other events would be May or June. End of May, beginning of June would most likely be best to allow some breathing room between big events.

I have two friends fairly high up in Hotel Chains, I will ask them about group rates, ballroom space, etc. See if they can hook up a discount.

As for a website that would be easy. A Blogspot blog or Wordpress blog can be quickly and easily set up. With wordpress we could host the site for the event for cheap and it gives a lot of flexibility.

We're still talking about how, exactly, to score it.

I don't want to post up my ideas when they would just be me talking without running it by the rest of my group. Just know that it's not going to be anything too terribly weird. 3 out of 5 missions will be straight out of the book, the other 2 sticking to as many basic rules as possible. You get the most points for a win and least for a loss, a tie being mid range. Maybe 3-5 possible bonus points for secondary objectives (possibly killing the HQ? etc) That's the general idea. Keep it simple, get a clear idea of who has the most points, and award first, second, and third. Then have separate categories for painting and maybe a prize for best over all. But not even that is set in stone. Personally, I would like to see an award for best converted that is entirely separate from painting, as I believe those are entirely separate skill sets. But, again, that's just me talking. Not about to set down any hard parameters here, just general ideas. And even those may change.

If you (or anyone else) is really this interested in helping (and that's awesome!) maybe we could pm and arrange to meet up at some point and hash it out.

And definitely talk to your friends about hotels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a1steaks wrote:I'm not a web designer, so I wouldn't want to be in charge of creating a website. I'm happy to start working on some tournament management software though.

Cool.

Once we get an idea of HOW we're going to score this, we can set something up.

Yes these are all good ideas. We should set up a meeting sort of thing maybe within the next week or so to begin talking this over. And to foremost get this ball rolling if we plan to get it going on a May/June date.

And Reecius you aint stealing any thunder. We could use the help in organizing this bad boy haha.

Yeah, I would be down to meet up. I am still looking for a store to call home, I literally just moved up to the Bay. It would be cool to meet some gamers in the area.

I completely understand that no one is setting anything in stone here, just tossing out some ideas.

I would suggest though, adopting a scoring system from a tried and true tournament system, perhaps with some minor tweaks. It is so easy to get caught up in the creative process and and get attached to a pet idea and then have it create all kinds of anger amongst tournament goers when holes that were unforeseen appear in it.

KISS (keep it simple, stupid) is always a good design philosophy.

A solid system is old trusty: 20 points per battle, 12 for primary, 5 for secondary, 3 for bonus. It allows both players to score points. The hard part, however, is in designing balanced objectives. This is were this system tends to take a crap.

Simply scoring based on win/loss/draw may be a good idea. I am trying to think if I know of any tournaments that run that system off the top of my head.

At any rate, it definitely bears study and discussion.

Take a close look at the NOVA Open, too. That is a pretty sweet system and there are a few tournaments out there adopting it.

Lastly, as far as painting/conversion/theme awards, I think they are good ideas as the more people who walk away with something, the more happy customers you have. Even if it is just a certificate. People like feeling like they earned something.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, I would be down to meet up. I am still looking for a store to call home, I literally just moved up to the Bay. It would be cool to meet some gamers in the area.

I completely understand that no one is setting anything in stone here, just tossing out some ideas.

I would suggest though, adopting a scoring system from a tried and true tournament system, perhaps with some minor tweaks. It is so easy to get caught up in the creative process and and get attached to a pet idea and then have it create all kinds of anger amongst tournament goers when holes that were unforeseen appear in it.

KISS (keep it simple, stupid) is always a good design philosophy.

A solid system is old trusty: 20 points per battle, 12 for primary, 5 for secondary, 3 for bonus. It allows both players to score points. The hard part, however, is in designing balanced objectives. This is were this system tends to take a crap.

Simply scoring based on win/loss/draw may be a good idea. I am trying to think if I know of any tournaments that run that system off the top of my head.

At any rate, it definitely bears study and discussion.

Take a close look at the NOVA Open, too. That is a pretty sweet system and there are a few tournaments out there adopting it.

Lastly, as far as painting/conversion/theme awards, I think they are good ideas as the more people who walk away with something, the more happy customers you have. Even if it is just a certificate. People like feeling like they earned something.

Come down to black diamond games on Saturday. There holding a 1850pt tourney for 40k. Thats where the majority of us call home.

Sweet, that is not too far from Brentwood.

I can't make the RTT this weekend, I have to go kill some braincells in Palm Springs at a Bachelor party this weekend.

Monday night is 40K night? Cool, do you guys have a league or is it open gaming?

Reecius wrote:That means the best time to not conflict with any other events would be May or June. End of May, beginning of June would most likely be best to allow some breathing room between big events.

Last I heard, the SoCal Slaughter in Space was scheduled for Memorial Day weekend, as is Kublacon up here.

February was not a month picked solely off the top of my head.

Suggestion: for the first year, target 40 people for a 2-day, 5 game event. Get the system nailed, and worry about large-scale marketing & etc. for 2012.

Janthkin wrote:
Suggestion: for the first year, target 40 people for a 2-day, 5 game event. Get the system nailed, and worry about large-scale marketing & etc. for 2012.

Agreed. This seemed to work quite well for Da Grand Waagh.

As far as I can tell here are a list of other GT's in the SF Bay Area and there month of play:

Da Grand Waaagh - October (40K & Fantasy)
SAWS - August (Fantasy)
Quake City Rumble - June (Fantasy)
Capitol Punishment - June (40K)

Not a GT but a large 1 day 40K & 1 day Fantasy, Kubla Con - May

Just so you know what you are scheduling around.

Hope that helps some.
Doc

Thanks, Doc. That does help.

Janthkin, you are right as usual. I forgot to factor in the SoCal Slaughter events which are great tournaments and not to be missed.

But, Feb does have the Broadside Bash.

Is anything in May?

I know it's not a "major" event as most local stores hold them, but when is the first round of 'Ard Boyz? Last year's was in May, correct?

Reece I've been looking for ways to expand on our tournament structure down here for our Sprue Posse system, including our ELO tracking as well as invitational invites.

We're already working with MVBRrant and his NOVA invitational slots. If you're interesting in taking a close look at our system maybe we could leverage that further, along with invites to our own invitational.

If that's something you might want to collaborate on let me know.