Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a game yesterday against Dave (different Dave to the normal one) second time now I've played him and his Space Wolves. First time was a three way game which me and Dave lost, who would be the victor now just the two of us?

Blood Angels "Wing Striker" - 2,000 points


HQ

Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x flamers - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Elite

1 x Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Heavy Support

Vindicator

Vindicator

Total: 2,000


Space Wolves - 2,000 points

HQ

Ragnar Blackmane

Rune Priest - living lightning & jaws of the world wolf

Rune Priest - murderous hurricane & jaws of the world wolf

Elite

5 x Wolf Guard - terminator armour on all & 1 x heavy flamer

Dreadnought - multi melta & storm bolter

Lone Wolf

Troops

9 x Grey Hunters w/ Rhino - plasma gun

10 x Grey Hunters - meltagun

10 x Blood Claws

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Typhoon - heavy flamer

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader - multi melta

6 x Long Fangs - lascannon, 2 x missile launchers & 2 x plasma cannons

6 x Long Fangs - 2 x lascannons, missile launcher, multi melta & plasma cannon


Game: Capture and Control + Dawn of War

Deployment

I won the roll off and decided to go second. I really hate DoW especially if playing with the wrong type of army i.e have heavy weap squads so going second means I can deploy all my army altogether and because Angels have fast vehicles means I can close the gap and use the weight of my entire army against the possible single deployed troop choice unit.

Dave deploys Ragnar with the Rhino-Hunter squad. I deploy nothing - my stuff is just placed on the board edge due to room to place stuff

I place my objective in a ruin on my table edge centre of the board, Dave places his in a ruin about 12" from his board edge.









* Tactical Notes

Dave has brought forward a single Rhino unsupported so I'll come and bounce as many lascannons off it I can while I drop Vindicator blasts on the Land Raider, 2d6 armour pen should do something.

Plan is to move up and then assault his exposed units. I'll blast the Dreadnought and Terminators though as I don't fancy assaulting them, though I don't mind assaulting the Terminators if they're thinned out.

Turn 1

Dave brings on his Land Raider behind the Rhino, the Rhino stays put while the rest of his troops on foot come on behind the Raider Dreadnought included. On the left flank the double lascannon squads comes on with Speeder support while the double plasma squad comes on the right flank.

No shooting, Dave has nothing to shoot at

My turn I roll everything on though divided between the objective ruin - I make sure Priests and Librarians are with each part of the force though I keep the Vindicators together which are mostly on the left flank while the other units use a large shrine ruin to get cover.

Shooting I roll for the Vindicators as it's night fighting, both are in range and fire at the Rhino as the Land Raider is out of range - I immobilise it. That's it!




* Tactical Notes

Could have had a better first turn but now that I think about it as I write this report I didn't fire any lascannons which could have been in range and blasted the Rhino open, ah well it's immobilised meaning Ragnar and posse need to get out.

I'll still gun for the Land Raider with the Vindicators and use lascannons to take out the Rhino and Land Speeder Typhoon. I'll move the right flank of units up the board towards the double plasma Long Fang unit and the objective, maybe I'll assault the Long Fangs with Honour Guard taking out the long range fire power and use a Assault Squad with Priest to contest the Wolf objective and kill the Lone Wolf nearby.

Turn 2

Land Raider and foot troops along with Dreadnought move forward with the Dreadnought using the Land Raider to block LOS from certain angles. Speeder moves to get better LOS.

Shooting I cast shield with both Librarians before I forget . Multi melta on the Crusader scores weapon destroyed on a Vindicator while the Typhoon wrecks a Razorback, melta squad inside passes pinning test. Other thanks get shot up but I make the saves. Double plasma squad splits fire at the oncoming double Razorbacks with Honour Guard and a flamer Assault Squad inside, nothing happens thanks to Librarians shield and some bad luck on Daves dice.

My turn I move the wall of Razorbacks forward splitting off a flamer Assault Squad with I.C Priest and melta Honour Guard moving them up the right flank with the intention of going for the objective and moving up and assaulting the Long Fangs. The weapon destroyed Vindicator I move into terrain of the ruin holding my objective while the melta squad on foot gets a 1 to run and moves towards it.

Shooting I fire at the Dreadnought but it's getting cover thanks to the Land Raider, it has a melta like the Raider but easier to take out but it passes all cover saves. I take a few pot shots at the Typhoon but it passes cover saves too. I blast the Land Raider with the operational Vindicator and immobilise it meaning those Blood Claws will need to get out soon. The two Razorbacks on the right flank I fire at the Rhino, it passes cover saves thanks to the centre shrine ruin half blocking it - no point firing single lascannon shots at Long Fangs even if in the open as won't do a fat lot!



* Tactical Notes

Not a bad second turn though Dave has done more in damage terms. What I have done is immobilised both his transports which means his troops will either have to bail out sooner or later or wait until I blow open his tanks for him to come and get me. Only meltas can tackle the Land Raider so if it doesn't get his troops out I'll blow them out with meltas, lol.

Next turn I'll move the Honour Guard up and bail them out unleashing meltas into the Long Fangs along with plasma support from the Razorback hopefully that will netrualise the Wolves long ranged fire power. I'll move the other Razorback onto the objective and blast the Lone Wolf while the rest I'm not sure on yet, will fire at the Typhoon and Dreadnought definately.

Turn 3

Dave bails out his Blood Claws with Ragnar and Hunters for support, he moves them both forward towards my Razorback wall. The Dreadnought moves around using the Raider for cover still as the rest of the foot troops move forward.

Shooting multi melta from the Land Raider fires at the Vindicator but misses. A Rune Priest appears on his tod from some where and attempts living lightning but Librarians psychic hood stops it . Dreadnought blasts side armour of a Razorback but does nothing. Double plasma Long Fangs split fire at the two oncoming Razorbacks scoring immobilised and shaken on the Assault Squad one and crew shaken on the Honour Guard one. Other Vindicator is crew shaken from a side armour shot from the Typhoon after failing cover save. Plasma gun from Ragnars group fires at a Razorback but shield makes the save.

In assault Blood Claws charge the operational Vindicator with 48 attacks! Only a single 6+ is rolled to glance which just shakes the tank.

My turn I move the shaken Honour Guard tank 12" towards the Wolf objective and bail half the squad out in terrain ready to dispense melta death on the Lone Wolf. Shaken Vindicator backs away using the wreck Razorback from the previous turn for cover in case of Typhoon side shots, the other Vindicator edges out of terrain and the melta squad runs into the ruin and claims my own objective. Assault Squads start bailing out of the tanks along with flamer Honour Guard with attached Librarian and a flamer squad with the other Librarian - I make sure the Priest is in position for furious charge.

Shooting Ragnar and co eat double flamers and buckets of bolt pistol shots leaving Ragnar and a few Wolves left - they pass morale. Blood Claws get hammered by mass plasma guns, lascannons and double flamers from the Honour Guard they pass morale. Melta Honour Guard blast the Lone Wolf with bolt pistols and meltaguns, Lone Wolf passes cover saves and armour saves.

In assault both Librarians cast unleash rage without any problems, Blood Claws get the smack down laid on them and die from the Honour Guard and Librarian. Ragnar and Hunters get charged by two flamer Assault Squads one with Librarian, Ragnar gets a bunch of attacks allocated to him and dies and only three Hunters are left locked in combat.



* Tactical Notes

That was a good turn taking out two main squads shame the Lone Wolf didn't kick the bucket but he's not doing any harm. Luckily for me nothing is really in charge range to get me and two immobilised tanks block the way for the infantry, I suspect though Dave might go and try and guard his objective.

Next turn I'll move a melta squad up out the Razorback and unleash melta on the Land Raider while the rest will move up and assault the Rhino and blast the Terminators - I'll use the Razorbacks to blast the Terminators as I'd rather not have to assault them and take them all out. Any spare shots will go into the Dreadnought as it's just getting closer and I have no reliable way of taking it out in combat.

Turn 4

Speeder flanks around to draw LOS better on the mass of red armour. Lone Wolf moves through terrain ready to assault while Grey Hunters and attached Rune Priest move into terrain where the objective is as the solo Rune Priest moves between the two immobilised tanks.

Shooting Speeder shakes a Razorback. Raider doesn't have luck shooting the multi melta or assault cannons. Dreadnought does better and explodes a Razorback, squad passes pinning and takes no wounds from the explosion. Solo Rune Priest tries living lightning but Librarian stops it with psychic hood. Double plasma squad split fire at the two Razorbacks again but do nothing to the Honour Guard one and just shake the immobilised one. Grey Hunters with Rune Priest rapid fire the Honour Guard, Rune Priest tries hurricane power but hood stops it - thanks to feel no pain no Honour Guard take a wound.

In assault Grey Hunters get wiped out though take a Blood Angel with them, squads consolidate towards the Wolf Guard ready to blast with flamers and bolt pistols. Lone Wolf charges the Honour Guard and scores no wounds on them but takes a wound himself, he falls back 7".

My turn I move Librarian with flamer unit towards the immobilised Rhino while the flamer Honour Guard move towards the solo Rune Priest as a Razorback moves up to the Raider and a melta Assault Squad bail out. All empty Razorbacks crash through the shrine ruin to mass blast the Terminators as the flamer squad disembarks with the Priest from the immobilised Razorback and the melta squad just exploded out their tank moves through terrain.

Shooting melta squad blasts the Land Raider and scores weapon destroyed taking out the assault cannon, which I don't fancy rending my troops to pieces. Rune Priest gets blasted by couple of bolt pistols from the flamer Honour Guard as flamers will cover my own troops, Priest is ok. Terminators get blasted by lascannons, plasma guns, bolt pistols, flamers and meltaguns from several units and get wiped out spare shots go into the Dreadnought taking out the dccw and immobilising it - at least it's not a threat in assault which is my main worry! Melta Honour Guard blast some Grey Hunters. Remaining Razorbacks blast the Typhoon and immobilise it.

In assault flamer Honour Guard charge the Rune Priest, the Librarian decks him with force weapon. Flamer squad with Librarian charge the immobilised Rhino and wreck it. Melta Honour Guard charge the Grey Hunters, attacks get allocated against the Rune Priest and some on the squad - Honour Guard take three wounds Hunters two Guard remain in combat though.



* Tactical Notes

Not a bad turn seeing the remaining Grey Hunters with Ragnar gone and then in my turn the emtpy Rhino taken out just because I can, the Dreadnought dealt with, Terminators smoking from plasma and Grey Hunters locked in combat. Now best I can hope for is the Honour Guard dying in combat which means I can open fire with everything on the Grey Hunters next turn.

My plan is to finish off that Typhoon and Land Raider, move all units around or onto the Wolf objective and blast the Grey Hunters to kingdom come - if I can assault I'll do that.

Turn 5

I don't think Dave does any movement this turn, nothing can move or he wants to move!

Shooting I remember to cast shield this time but with only one Librarian as the other is close by. The Long Fang squad on the left flank hasn't been doing much all game finally gets to do something and blasts a Assault Squad with lascannons and plasmas, one plasma misses but after it's all said and done only the flamer Marine from that unit remains though passes morale. Other Long Fang unit splits fire at the same targets again, Honour Guard's empty Razorback is shaken and the immobilised tank is stunned and weapon destroyed losing the plasma gun. Speeder fires kraks at a Razorback and shakes it.

In assault Grey Hunters kill the Honour Guard and consolidate holding the Wolf objective.

My turn I move the empty Honour Guard shaken tank through terrain without any problems and contest the Wolf objective. I move all Assault Squads up to the edge of the building ready to blast through the windows.

Shooting melta blasts the Land Raider and misses. Vindicator blasts the Speeder and close range it scatters back and scores weapon destroyed on itself, nice, supporting Razorback misses with lascannon shot. Grey Hunters get blasted to pieces Rune Priest included.



* Tactical Notes

Well the Wolf objective is contested now and only the Lone Wolf left near by. Shame I couldn't take out the Typhoon and Land Raider as they're becoming extremely annoying.

Next turn I'll move onto the objective and blast the single wound Lone Wolf, hopefully finish off the Typhoon and Land Raider.

Turn 6

No movement from Dave.

Shooting Dreadnought tries to blow up a tank by misses. I can't remember what either Long Fangs do. Speeder shakes the Razorback supporting the weapon destroyed Vindicator, that's it!

My turn I move several Assault Squads onto the Wolf objective. Shooting Lone Wolf eats mass bolt pistols and dies. Dreadnought goes boom thanks to lascannon and plasma shots from a Razorback. Melta fails to penetrate the Land Raider and I've got nothing to take out the Speeder.

We roll for next turn and it doesn't happen. Game it over going to the Angels claiming both objectives.



Summary

Not bad game all in all. I made a few mistakes like forgetting to cast shield power luckily it paid off and Daves bad luck of dice rolling didn't do anything. Speaking of dice rolls Dave needs to get rid of lascannons as they either didn't hit or when they did they did F-all.

Dave did ok considering he usually plays 1,500 point games. He was testing Wolf Guard and Lone Wolf in this list which he said he would give another try though the Lone Wolf was pretty useless. I suggested to take just missiles launchers in the Long Fang units and proxy them if he hasn't got the models and get more Rhinos for his troops as they're easy to shoot and assault. If he got those few things sorted in his list and fine tuned what he wanted at 2k level I'm sure his list would be better and play better for him.

As far as Lone Wolves are concerned I have seen them either be epic by holding up a unit/MC for turns or fail horribly and be a point sink. Great read and I always enjoy your battle reports!

I looked at Lone Wolves and I can't tell what they're meant to do. Just a single model which appears to be same as a Wolf Guard. Thanks for the comment

Hmmm, razorback blood angels spam! Very effective. However I think that your opponent needs to make some changes if he wants to play against your super competitive list:

3x5 Missile Launcher LF (Variety is NOT the spice of life here)
A Twolf Lord (or two!)
Swap both of those priests to LL and have the off skill be diff.
Lose the crusader
drop the wg down to PA with C-Melta and Claws
Lone wolf is poop
Ragnar is a cool factor, not an effective one

He has some fat to trim and of course it is all dictated by how much he's able to throw at the army.

The missile launchers I suggested to him. I think he is going WYSIWYG but I think he's learnt that it's not always the best way. I mentioned to him about proxying and no would mind if he explained that all these heavy weaps were missile launchers before games.

I think in the right direction and some of the suggestions you made it could be a better Wolf list. I'll pass these onto him.

Can your vindicator just drive over your razorbacks?

They can when they're wrecks - why?

I disagree with those suggestions for Dave's list; much of them drop out the character and make it another one of 'those' lists IMHO.

Ragnar is actually a very powerful HQ, but he is an expensive beatstick. Doesn't change that whomever he leads is going to be nigh-unstoppable. If he had Ragnar in the LRC with the Wolf Guard and gave them 2 power fists and 3 Wolf Claws or Frost Blades, there's very little that could stand in their way with furious charge and +D3 attacks. The only problem with this is that it become very eggs/basket.

The Rune Priests are illegal also, unless you didn't list it, they need to have different wargear; it's also good to have a Chooser of the Slain with LL, so if you give on Chooser it's two birds with one stone. Storm Caller could also work to protect the Land Raider too btw.

Long Fang packs shouldn't necessarily be all missiles IMHO, Lascannons and Plasma Cannons can work well to complement their firepower. If you're taking Las/Plasmacannons then I'd recommend a ratio of 3:2 Missiles to Las/Plas. So 3 missile Launchers and either 2 Plasma or 2 Lascannons would be good IMHO.

If the troop choices were mechanised, that would also be a big boost so they don't attack piecemeal and help saturate firepower from the Land Raider. MotW and Wolf Standards are also lovely pieces of wargear.

Furthermore, a LR should always have extra armour as it'd typically total over 500pts and you don't want to have that sitting still for a turn.

I'd also recommend a Drop Pod for the Dreadnought or re-arming it, as a 24" multimelta may struggle to get into range otherwise. It didn't seem to do much at all this game.

Finally, Blood Claws are MUCH more effective when led by a Wolf Priest.

I'd suggest to Dave (what a guy I might add ), something like this:

- Ragnar - 2x Fen Wolves - 260pts
- Rune Priest - Chooser - LL, Murderous Hurricane - 110pts
- Rune Priest - Storm Caller, JotWW

5x Wolf Guard - Terminator Armour, 1 Power Fist, 1 Frost Blade, 3 Wolf Claws, Heavy Flamer - 205pts

Land Raider Crusader - Extra Armour, Multimelta - 275pts (Redeemer would be a better option?)

10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Wolf Standard - 200pts

10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmagun, Rhino, Wolf Standard - 205pts

9x Blood Claws - Flamer, Rhino - 180pts (Rune Priest w/ Storm Caller here)

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90pts

6x Long Fangs - 3x ML, 2x LC - 170pts

6x Long Fangs - 3x ML, 2x PC - 160pts

According to my calculations, that's 1950pts. Here, all Dave would need to buy extra is a couple of Rhinos, 2 Fenrisian Wolves and do some wargear changes, which would hopefully not be too difficult.

The Speeder(s) and Long Fangs and LL Priest would provide covering fire, whilst the rest of the force advances and forces you to focus on the immediate threat whilst hopefully the firebase picks you apart. Ragnar would go with the Termies in the Landraider, an expensive but powerful combo (tbh I was having trouble trying to fit these dudes into this list, but it appears Dave likes them) that should kill anything it touches (in assault).
This would be given a 5+ by the Storm Caller libby and Blood Claws, who as I said should really be in a LR and Led by a Wolf Priest, otherwise they'd be better off used as GH's.
They would also be supported by the Grey Hunters who should put out some damage but would hopefully come across as a negligible danger compared to the rest.

Hopefully that sounds reasonable to the both of you and that's my advice at the very least.

Good bat rep Mercer, keep 'em coming!

Why did his Fearless Lone Wolf fall back 7"?

Most folks tend to run Lone Wolfs in Terminator armor with a Storm Shield, Chain Fist and two Fenrisian wolves. If the opponent ignores it, it will chew through vehicles and MCs. If they don't ignore him, his 2+/3++ save, 2 wounds and Eternal Warrior plus the abalative wolves allow him to soak up a lot of firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, maybe you just didn't mention them, but did he remember to use his Runic weapons to negate your psychic powers? You'd think they'd have stopped at least one in the course of the game.

Just Dave wrote:I disagree with those suggestions for Dave's list; much of them drop out the character and make it another one of 'those' lists IMHO.

Ragnar is actually a very powerful HQ, but he is an expensive beatstick. Doesn't change that whomever he leads is going to be nigh-unstoppable. If he had Ragnar in the LRC with the Wolf Guard and gave them 2 power fists and 3 Wolf Claws or Frost Blades, there's very little that could stand in their way with furious charge and +D3 attacks. The only problem with this is that it become very eggs/basket.

The Rune Priests are illegal also, unless you didn't list it, they need to have different wargear; it's also good to have a Chooser of the Slain with LL, so if you give on Chooser it's two birds with one stone. Storm Caller could also work to protect the Land Raider too btw.

Long Fang packs shouldn't necessarily be all missiles IMHO, Lascannons and Plasma Cannons can work well to complement their firepower. If you're taking Las/Plasmacannons then I'd recommend a ratio of 3:2 Missiles to Las/Plas. So 3 missile Launchers and either 2 Plasma or 2 Lascannons would be good IMHO.

If the troop choices were mechanised, that would also be a big boost so they don't attack piecemeal and help saturate firepower from the Land Raider. MotW and Wolf Standards are also lovely pieces of wargear.

Furthermore, a LR should always have extra armour as it'd typically total over 500pts and you don't want to have that sitting still for a turn.

I'd also recommend a Drop Pod for the Dreadnought or re-arming it, as a 24" multimelta may struggle to get into range otherwise. It didn't seem to do much at all this game.

Finally, Blood Claws are MUCH more effective when led by a Wolf Priest.

I'd suggest to Dave (what a guy I might add ), something like this:

- Ragnar - 2x Fen Wolves - 260pts
- Rune Priest - Chooser - LL, Murderous Hurricane - 110pts
- Rune Priest - Storm Caller, JotWW

5x Wolf Guard - Terminator Armour, 1 Power Fist, 1 Frost Blade, 3 Wolf Claws, Heavy Flamer - 205pts

Land Raider Crusader - Extra Armour, Multimelta - 275pts (Redeemer would be a better option?)

10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Wolf Standard - 200pts

10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmagun, Rhino, Wolf Standard - 205pts

9x Blood Claws - Flamer, Rhino - 180pts (Rune Priest w/ Storm Caller here)

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90pts

6x Long Fangs - 3x ML, 2x LC - 170pts

6x Long Fangs - 3x ML, 2x PC - 160pts

According to my calculations, that's 1950pts. Here, all Dave would need to buy extra is a couple of Rhinos, 2 Fenrisian Wolves and do some wargear changes, which would hopefully not be too difficult.

The Speeder(s) and Long Fangs and LL Priest would provide covering fire, whilst the rest of the force advances and forces you to focus on the immediate threat whilst hopefully the firebase picks you apart. Ragnar would go with the Termies in the Landraider, an expensive but powerful combo (tbh I was having trouble trying to fit these dudes into this list, but it appears Dave likes them) that should kill anything it touches (in assault).
This would be given a 5+ by the Storm Caller libby and Blood Claws, who as I said should really be in a LR and Led by a Wolf Priest, otherwise they'd be better off used as GH's.
They would also be supported by the Grey Hunters who should put out some damage but would hopefully come across as a negligible danger compared to the rest.

Hopefully that sounds reasonable to the both of you and that's my advice at the very least.

Good bat rep Mercer, keep 'em coming!

The Rune Priests have different psychic powers which are different wargear.

Having some slightly different weapons in Long Fangs isn't too bad as they can split fire.

Single Pods do not work nor do single Raiders, though extra armour is worth it on Raiders.

I'll pass this info onto him, should be handy

razcalking wrote:Why did his Fearless Lone Wolf fall back 7"?

Most folks tend to run Lone Wolfs in Terminator armor with a Storm Shield, Chain Fist and two Fenrisian wolves. If the opponent ignores it, it will chew through vehicles and MCs. If they don't ignore him, his 2+/3++ save, 2 wounds and Eternal Warrior plus the abalative wolves allow him to soak up a lot of firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, maybe you just didn't mention them, but did he remember to use his Runic weapons to negate your psychic powers? You'd think they'd have stopped at least one in the course of the game.

He told his Lone Wolf isn't fearless and checked his codex. Not sure what the Fen Wolves do but cannot see them chewing through monstrous creatures when chain fists strike last. Also was told he's not eternal warrior as I blasted the Lone Wolf with meltas.

His runic weapons cannot negate my psychic powers, they only work for powers targetted against the Rune Priest and none of my powers do.

I don't feel that single pods work either; but it's a better alternative then foot-slogging...

I do however feel that single raiders can work so long as there's sufficient target saturation for them; I like to run mine alongside 2 vindicators and some rhinos.

Anyways, I hope that helps. Just stating my peace.

mercer wrote:
He told his Lone Wolf isn't fearless and checked his codex. Not sure what the Fen Wolves do but cannot see them chewing through monstrous creatures when chain fists strike last. Also was told he's not eternal warrior as I blasted the Lone Wolf with meltas.

His runic weapons cannot negate my psychic powers, they only work for powers targetted against the Rune Priest and none of my powers do.

Yikes - no wonder he lost, he has no idea what the rules are for his army. Lone Wolves have Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain and Beastslayer. Beastslayer is what helps them chew through MCs. Runic Weapons stop any psychic power used within 24" of them on a 4+, even if they are not the target of the power. From the book:

"whenever an enemy model scuceeds on a Psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified." Absolutely no mention of needing to be the target.

mercer wrote:

The Rune Priests have different psychic powers which are different wargear.

Unfortunately the Leaders of the Pack specifies that an HQ cannot have the same psychic powers or wargear combinations. Unfortunately these rune priests are illegal as they do have the same wargear combination. Powers don't count as wargear

First I want to say thank you for posting a well done battle report. The tactical notes and the pictures were great. Second I think you played well with a well thought out list. The SW army could use a little work. Not to beat a dead horse, but missile launchers are cheap and multi purpose. There is no reason not to use them. 3 x 4 missiles I think is the best option. Creates more targets, firing options, and fire power. That is one thing that this list lacks.... fire power. One land raider with a multi melta and a couple in troops is not enough. Max those special weapons per 5 troops. Don't be afraid to take advantage of FREE flamers too. A wolf guard with at least a combi melta is also a necessity to up the leadership and add a bit more anti tank. In 5th edition mech rules.... because tanks are not easy to pop so do yourself a favor and take as much cheap anti armor as possible. Adding wolf claws or power fists to the guard is not a bad idea, but be wary of how many points you spend doing it. Some WG additions are too bloated.

The reason why people use 5 man squads in vehicles is to max out special weapons and armored targets. This is what the OP has done quite effectively. Many people tend to pimp out 10 man squads of grey hunters with every upgrade possible, but I don't see much logic to it especially if you have a rune priest with them. When you move a rhino you can only fire out of one fire point so there is no use having 1 special weapon unable to fire each turn. Spread them out. If you are not sold on the 5 man squads then mix upgraded 7 man squads with meltas and 5 man squads with meltas (rhinos) or flamers (las/plas razorbacks). SWs cannot combat squad.... also a plus one for small squad sizes.

All of my comments so far are in line with a las/plas + rhino spam list. They work... but if you dont want to be quite as vanilla then add in some goodies. A LRC with Ragnar, blood claws, and a wolf priest is a glass hammer. Remember they are only 3+ though... A 5 man squad of combi termies is not a bad accompaniment either. Protect the Raider with the rhino/razors and push it forward while firing every thing you have at them. Bust the transports unload your close combat nightmare and have a blast. You can always try to take cover behind the raider if your transports are blown to bits. I would say protect the raider because if that gets popped thats a lot of 3+ armored points sitting out in the open.

Lone wolves are great counter attack elements and MC/IC hunters when equipped right. They are as resilient as hell and don't give away KPs. What's not to like besides being 85 pts for one model and they each take up a force org slot. I don't think they belong in your list though. That SW army already has enough CC, but it lacks fire power and vehicle saturation. Also not a fan of SW dreadnoughts... there are just too many better options.

Hopefully I am not tearing this apart too much, but it's entirely possible to have fun with SWs whilst kicking ass. Mix it up, but keep it smart and for god sakes if you are going to go mech buy/build some more razorback kits!!!!

~Casey

Just Dave wrote:I don't feel that single pods work either; but it's a better alternative then foot-slogging...

I do however feel that single raiders can work so long as there's sufficient target saturation for them; I like to run mine alongside 2 vindicators and some rhinos.

Anyways, I hope that helps. Just stating my peace.

Well what is better is taking double autocannon Dreadnoughts

razcalking wrote:

mercer wrote:
He told his Lone Wolf isn't fearless and checked his codex. Not sure what the Fen Wolves do but cannot see them chewing through monstrous creatures when chain fists strike last. Also was told he's not eternal warrior as I blasted the Lone Wolf with meltas.

His runic weapons cannot negate my psychic powers, they only work for powers targetted against the Rune Priest and none of my powers do.

Yikes - no wonder he lost, he has no idea what the rules are for his army. Lone Wolves have Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain and Beastslayer. Beastslayer is what helps them chew through MCs. Runic Weapons stop any psychic power used within 24" of them on a 4+, even if they are not the target of the power. From the book:

"whenever an enemy model scuceeds on a Psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified." Absolutely no mention of needing to be the target.

Well I would have to say the Space Wolf player made a major doh! on the Lone Wolf as he even checked his codex while playing! I've just checked myself and fearless is in black and white and eternal warrior is part of the glorious death rule with has feel no pain. It was his first time using the Lone Wolf but I guess should check the rules and did look at the book while we was playing too. Oh, beastslayer, thanks for the info I didn't know that either.

Thanks for the info on the Rune Priest too! Damn this Wolf player has a lot to learn, I'm starting to feel a bit dirty with this victory. He's sort of new but has been playing since August last year so nearly a year now.

I'll remember these rules for next time, you've been a big help and I can tell the Wolves player

osumicrobio wrote:

mercer wrote:

The Rune Priests have different psychic powers which are different wargear.

Unfortunately the Leaders of the Pack specifies that an HQ cannot have the same psychic powers or wargear combinations. Unfortunately these rune priests are illegal as they do have the same wargear combination. Powers don't count as wargear

I getcha. So two of the Rune Priests can't have joww because same psychic powers, only one can. I'll mention that next time. Thanks for that.

Cock Goblin wrote:First I want to say thank you for posting a well done battle report. The tactical notes and the pictures were great. Second I think you played well with a well thought out list. The SW army could use a little work. Not to beat a dead horse, but missile launchers are cheap and multi purpose. There is no reason not to use them. 3 x 4 missiles I think is the best option. Creates more targets, firing options, and fire power. That is one thing that this list lacks.... fire power. One land raider with a multi melta and a couple in troops is not enough. Max those special weapons per 5 troops. Don't be afraid to take advantage of FREE flamers too. A wolf guard with at least a combi melta is also a necessity to up the leadership and add a bit more anti tank. In 5th edition mech rules.... because tanks are not easy to pop so do yourself a favor and take as much cheap anti armor as possible. Adding wolf claws or power fists to the guard is not a bad idea, but be wary of how many points you spend doing it. Some WG additions are too bloated.

Firstly I have to say that user name is comical, !

Thanks for the kind words.

I've mentioned to the Wolf player twice about missile launchers. I think he is mind set on WYSIWYG but I told him players won't mind count as.

I've already told him about special weapons too. Now that I think about it the unit with Ragnar was 10 strong plus Ragnar as that unit had a meltagun and plasma gun, so Ragnar should'nt have gone inside the tank. I have also told him about the special weapons before. He can easily sort this by switching around models from other untis.

I'll mention to him about Wold Guard tips. The extra leadership I found was handy for him when doing tests for counter attack when I charged him.

The reason why people use 5 man squads in vehicles is to max out special weapons and armored targets. This is what the OP has done quite effectively. Many people tend to pimp out 10 man squads of grey hunters with every upgrade possible, but I don't see much logic to it especially if you have a rune priest with them. When you move a rhino you can only fire out of one fire point so there is no use having 1 special weapon unable to fire each turn. Spread them out. If you are not sold on the 5 man squads then mix upgraded 7 man squads with meltas and 5 man squads with meltas (rhinos) or flamers (las/plas razorbacks). SWs cannot combat squad.... also a plus one for small squad sizes.

Yes I know about min-max, take a look at my Angels list . A Rhino does indeed have a single fire point but TWO models can fire out and seems Grey Hunters get the second special for free or cheap as chips then having full squads with double special weapons is not too bad.

All of my comments so far are in line with a las/plas + rhino spam list. They work... but if you dont want to be quite as vanilla then add in some goodies. A LRC with Ragnar, blood claws, and a wolf priest is a glass hammer. Remember they are only 3+ though... A 5 man squad of combi termies is not a bad accompaniment either. Protect the Raider with the rhino/razors and push it forward while firing every thing you have at them. Bust the transports unload your close combat nightmare and have a blast. You can always try to take cover behind the raider if your transports are blown to bits. I would say protect the raider because if that gets popped thats a lot of 3+ armored points sitting out in the open.

I did mention about putting Ragnar with the Blood Claws instead of Grey Hunters, which should be shooting instead. I also mentioned to him the single Land Raider could survive though best taking doubles and Rhinos are required. TBH the list isn't too bad it just needs tidying up. The Fangs need missile launchers, Ragnar might not be required but furious charge is cool I would consider putting a Wolf Priest in with them so can re-roll to hit against infantry and then take a single Rune Priest. He then just needs another Dreadnought with double autocannon setup maybe and add more troops too, just make sure all units have Rhinos.

Lone wolves are great counter attack elements and MC/IC hunters when equipped right. They are as resilient as hell and don't give away KPs. What's not to like besides being 85 pts for one model and they each take up a force org slot. I don't think they belong in your list though. That SW army already has enough CC, but it lacks fire power and vehicle saturation. Also not a fan of SW dreadnoughts... there are just too many better options.

Thanks for the info on them, btw I'm using Blood Angels not Space Wolves - the Wolves player just added the Lone Wolf in last minute and I think hasn't read the rules properly on the Lone Wolf and didn't know how to use him.

Hopefully I am not tearing this apart too much, but it's entirely possible to have fun with SWs whilst kicking ass. Mix it up, but keep it smart and for god sakes if you are going to go mech buy/build some more razorback kits!!!!

~Casey

Everything you've more or less said I've told the Wolf player though it reinforces what I've said to him. I don't know a huge amount about Wolves myself though I have the codex so I'll be passing this info onto him.

mercer wrote:

I getcha. So two of the Rune Priests can't have joww because same psychic powers, only one can. I'll mention that next time. Thanks for that.

I should clarify, and sorry if this is beating a dead horse! You can have the same psychic powers, just not the same combination for the two. Same with wargear, you can have repeated gear, just not the exact same loadout.

So for instance:

When I field my 2 Rune Priests they are as follows:

1 has no additional wargear and his powers are: Living Lightning and Jaws. The other has a Chooser of the Slain and his powers are: Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane.

They would be illegal if they both had default wargear (both have the same loadout) or if they both had the same 2 powers. It is a funky little sidenote for the wolves that I wish they had left out.

Right. Well he didn't have same combination of the two. One Priest had joww and hurricane the other joww and living lightning. So probably best throw melta bombs on or something on the other one I guess as default wargear is same load out as you said.

BTW on the subject of negating psychic powers:

I'm pretty sure all someone has to do is pass a perils test around the runic weapon in order to trigger the nullification roll. Though you may want to look that up, I've been playing my Guard army lately and my memory is a bit fuzzy.

However, I do disagree with the stated lack of effectiveness of only 1 LR or 1 Pod. One of my SW tournmanet lists include multiple rhinos, LR, Dread in a Pod and a slogging dread. The pod is wonderful for throwing the enemy off first turn and from there its pure armor saturation backed up by overwhelming Long Fang support. Armor saturation has become a wonderful thing, no matter what form it takes.

You are correct. It's basically a psychic hood but 4+ it stops the power instead of dice roll off.

Well lets take the single Pod. It will come down unsupported in the opponents face and have a single shot multi melta or assault cannon mostly likely. All you're going to take is wreck a single tank or put a few wounds on something that's it. Next turn the opponent will slag the Dreadnought.

Now the single Land Raider, big target tough to stop and melta is the best chance - guess where all the melta is going. How many melta shots can that Raider take? If that thing gets immobilised at the wrong point on the board then it's pretty useless.

That's why you have two of something not for just saturation but for redunancy as well

I agree on the drop pod part, but with a Land Raider running two is a pretty big points sink. Also, generally once the LR is in Melta range it should have delivered its cargo - hopefully assault terminators...

Oh, I agree absolutely on the Drop Pod thing, such is the fate of most of my MM dreadnoughts. But think about it, barring a single lucky shot that wrecks the Dread...with the combo of potential cover saves from the Drop Pod and keeping your front/side armor facing the enemy that is potentially a lot of resources directing itself towards that one Dreadnought. Its more than just the MM shot, your enemy -needs- that Dreadnought dead or its going to tear up their armor or units lacking Melta Bombs / PF in their backfield.

It starts to come down to the subject of armor saturation again. The more guns turn towards the dreadnought, the less guns are pointing down the field are you advancing wave. I love this tactic, but its personal preference and obviously your mileage may vary. This may not be as great of a tactic for armies lacking transports (but who does that in 5e?! x.x).

calypso2ts wrote:I agree on the drop pod part, but with a Land Raider running two is a pretty big points sink. Also, generally once the LR is in Melta range it should have delivered its cargo - hopefully assault terminators...

You're totally correct. In my old Imperial Fist list I run double Crusaders with multi meltas and 5 Hammernators in each plus a Librarian in terminator armour thrown on top! All this cost 1060 if my maths is right for essentially two units! That's just over half my army points. And yes, once in melta range cargo should be out - but what about if it's a melta suicide or alpha strike unit? Your cargo is going to be at the back of the board, lol. At least with two Land Raiders you still have another to plough forward.

FireWolf698 wrote:Oh, I agree absolutely on the Drop Pod thing, such is the fate of most of my MM dreadnoughts. But think about it, barring a single lucky shot that wrecks the Dread...with the combo of potential cover saves from the Drop Pod and keeping your front/side armor facing the enemy that is potentially a lot of resources directing itself towards that one Dreadnought. Its more than just the MM shot, your enemy -needs- that Dreadnought dead or its going to tear up their armor or units lacking Melta Bombs / PF in their backfield.

It starts to come down to the subject of armor saturation again. The more guns turn towards the dreadnought, the less guns are pointing down the field are you advancing wave. I love this tactic, but its personal preference and obviously your mileage may vary. This may not be as great of a tactic for armies lacking transports (but who does that in 5e?! x.x).

It won't be a single lucky shot though will it? It will be a big bulk of the armies fire power and I doubt very much you will get cover from a Drop Pod when it opens up - you can see right through it and the fins won't cover much. Plus if you're in melta range then the opponent can easily move to be in a better position, remember, the opponent does move .

Ohh, transports, you'll be surprised!

How is 1000 points not a big point sink for two units? I am not saying that you cannot run two in a list effectively. I just do not think running at least two is required like it is for some units.

Eh? I just agreed with you. I said You're totally correct, that they are a point sink.

Whoa, I completely misread that! Sorry Mercer its been a long week.

No worries man!