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So, after deliberating for a while my buddy has taken the plunge and got the FoW starter set (he called a few minutes ago!).

Obviously we will play with what has been provided to us, not much by the look of the box contents!

Now we have had lots of experience of wargames but have spent the last few years playing 28mm skirmish type games. What can we expect rules wise?

How long does turn usually take and what format does it take?

Looking ahead, what are the best lists for new comers to try. My buddy will be taking brits or yanks I will be looking at Germans and personally, though I like my tanks, I would be looking at a fairly mobile force with lots of anti tank and anti infantry support couple with Skdfz armoured cars.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

what side are you going to play/keep the US/British (depending on how you model the tank) , or the Germans?

Makarov wrote:what side are you going to play/keep the US/British (depending on how you model the tank) , or the Germans?

...He said it, right up there in the first post.

Ok, first off - Welcome to Flames of War, the game of movie WWII combat!

The Rules - fairly decent. As a 40k player first, I was pleasantly surprised by just how much more I enjoyed the FoW rules than those of GW. You'll definitely see some simularities if you've ever played a game of 40k. I'd direct you to the Flames of War Bootcamp if you want a better understanding of the game, and I'd even more heartily recommend you sign up for the official FoW forum.

As for turns, well, the time depends on the players and the armies. German Armoured companies are going to go a lot faster than Soviet Infantry Companies. The turn itself goes Move, Shoot, Assault (with some book-keeping and other action phases thrown in).

For lists, there isn't anything like a 'best list' to take. Most lists are fairly balanced within their own time period. What you will have to do is chose what Era you want to play in - Early, Mid or Late.

Early War goes from the years 1939-1940, where Germany begins is assault on Europe. It is the newest Era to be explored, and is therefore still in it's 'testing' phase, with only 2 books so far.

Mid War details the yeats 1941-1943, where we see fighting in Africa, the Mediterranean, and in Russia. It is generally considered to be the most 'balanced' era.

Late War chronicles years 1944-1945 - the Allied Invasion of Europe itself, on both the Eastern and Western Fronts. The game semi-favors tanks, but infantry is still king of the battlefield.

Since you guys are thinking of Brits/Yank and Germans, I'd suggest creating an account over at Easy Army (an online list-building site) and buying both Earth & Steel and Turning Tides, for a convenient $2. These books are compilations of the lists for Germans and Allies (respectively) for the fighting that took place on D-Day and afterwards.

For you, I'd suggest running one of the many Mechanized Company lists in Earth & Steel. The Panzerpionerkompanie is a mechanized force that uses Pioneers as it's man troops - soldiers that are better in Tank Assault than other infantry (Tank Assault 4 instead of Tank Assault 2). They are also fielded in MG teams, meaning they'll get a bunch of dice in shooting. You can also use the Panzerpioner Lehr Kompanie. The main problems is that StuGs aren't in these lists, but a loss of 2 tanks isn't too bad.

For half-tracks, I'd recommend the Plastic Soldier Company, who are going to have 15mm half-tracks available soon, and at a much more affordable cost than Battlefront.

infinite_array wrote:

Makarov wrote:what side are you going to play/keep the US/British (depending on how you model the tank) , or the Germans?

...He said it, right up there in the first post.

Thanks for the response.

I have already set up an account with Easy Army, which is a boon.

Once we dive in it looks liek we will be playing mid to late war. We fancied early war, but since The later years are much more well covered.....
I keep leaning towards a Panzerpioneerkompanie.

What would be a fair match up from Yanks or Brits? Consider armour and artillery supporting the infantry.

Also, how much of a look in can air support get?

All options are viable IMHO. Some, particularly infantry lists will look to take Air support to take out Big Cats or indeed Churchills/Crocs.

For your friend you can't go far wrong with a British Rifle Company. Lots of sturdy infantry, Infantry tank support (I Heart Churchills especially Crocs) plus many 25lbers is pretty standard and quite viable.

For the Gerries it sounds like you might want some Panzergrenadiers. Lots of armoured infantry with the whole gambit of German tanks to choose from in support. The down side to German forces is that you may find the Air Support marginally less effective to reflect the Allied superiority in that dept.

Also Hobbycraft are selling FoW for large discounts at the moment. If there is one near you it is worth looking into, I was recently in Maidstone on business and their Hobbycraft had their entire range in Clearance and I manaded to get Fortress Europe, Blitzkreig, 3.7" AA Box and a pair of Challengers for £55 (over 33% off). Most retailers only go to 10% as part of their terms with Battlefront.

Their website has a few lines on it as well, you might want to call them.

Mr. Burning wrote:Once we dive in it looks liek we will be playing mid to late war. We fancied early war, but since The later years are much more well covered.....
I keep leaning towards a Panzerpioneerkompanie.

What would be a fair match up from Yanks or Brits? Consider armour and artillery supporting the infantry.

Also, how much of a look in can air support get?

Combined forces armies do best in flames of war: Ie forces that have attacking and defending elements that can seize objectives while others secure the objectives in your side of the table. Forces that focus on all infantry or all tanks will be stymied in some of those instances. Except when learning the game. The starter set is a good place to start because you can start only having to learn the armored vehicle rules to play for a bit. Once you are comfortable with those, take those starting tanks and add some infantry to them to add in the infantry rules. From there add in artillery. Finally you can add in air support. Makes it a little easier than try to learn and get comfortable with all of the rules all at once.

I personally find air support to be kind of pointless. There are just too many ways for it not to show up on the table at all or be destroyed before it attacks and you will have wasted your points on it. I've seen all too many games where someone has relied on air support as their artillery for the game and then either forgot to roll for their air support at the beginning of a turn or failed to successfully roll for it once in the entire game and on the off chance it showed up it was stopped with fighter interception or by AA fire. I far prefer to spend those points on units that can be on the table from the beginning of the battle. Some people just really love their planes, though.

I am a full bore brit player in all 3 eras, and find LW the least enjoyable just because I get tired of facing all the massive german and russian armored vehicles that the brits don't have anything even remotely comparable to... I find EW the most enjoyable because I found it to be the most balanced across the forces. There are a couple heavies (Like the brit Matilda II and the French Char B1 bis), but their cost is so high, but their capabilities just aren't as great as a comparable JS-2 or Tiger II. A tiger II is expensive pointswise in LW, but is really worth it with its high armor and powerful main gun that is able to hurt any unit on the table. The Matilda II is expensive in EW, but is pretty much useless against mostly dug in infantry forces and cannot use its main gun against any targets other than armored and unarmored vehicles. German heavies on Russian heavies can be an awesome game to play and watch. German or Russian heavies against Cromwells or Shermans just gets really painful, really fast.

However you proceed have fun. FoW is a great game and good for lots of enjoyment!!

Skriker

I find EW the most enjoyable because I found it to be the most balanced across the forces

That is just plain wrong at the moment. Early war has the only broken list in FoW, the british armoured company, and in general, all tanks are a bit too cheap in early war, add that infantry has close to zero ability against tanks in early war, and you get a tank-fest

Midwar is the most balanced from everything I've heard, followed by late and then early.

Skriker wrote:


I am a full bore brit player in all 3 eras, and find LW the least enjoyable just because I get tired of facing all the massive german and russian armored vehicles that the brits don't have anything even remotely comparable to... I find EW the most enjoyable because I found it to be the most balanced across the forces. There are a couple heavies (Like the brit Matilda II and the French Char B1 bis), but their cost is so high, but their capabilities just aren't as great as a comparable JS-2 or Tiger II. A tiger II is expensive pointswise in LW, but is really worth it with its high armor and powerful main gun that is able to hurt any unit on the table. The Matilda II is expensive in EW, but is pretty much useless against mostly dug in infantry forces and cannot use its main gun against any targets other than armored and unarmored vehicles. German heavies on Russian heavies can be an awesome game to play and watch. German or Russian heavies against Cromwells or Shermans just gets really painful, really fast.

However you proceed have fun. FoW is a great game and good for lots of enjoyment!!

Skriker

*CoughcoughBARcoughcough*

I play LW Brits and Germans, but I'd really like to try out Mid War combat in North Africa.

infinite_array wrote:[quote*CoughcoughBARcoughcough*

Easiest way to limit the effectiveness of the British Armoured Regiment is to face them with infantry and gun teams. Unless they are full of Vickers VI Cs, their tally ho rules will be pretty pointless when their 2pdrs can't hurt anything on the table at all and plenty of weapon's fire goes right their the cardboard armor on the british tanks. Even the Vickers VI Cs are still only FP 5+ making their usefulness against dug in gun and infantry somewhat limited as well. They are no where near unbeatable. I think people are just cranky that the brits finally have a competitive armored force to field that isn't automatically outclassed by their german counter parts.

Everyone whines about the BAR, but I've seen them soundly beaten plenty of times to not be concerned about them being a "broken" list. Those who complain about EW only being an armored fest and nothing else being able to succeed. My primary EW list is a Divisional Cavalry Squadron (because my MW list is armoured cars primarily and the DVS was closest to that concept). The highest AT value on my vehicles was 4 with the best FP being a 5+. I supplemented my force with plenty of infantry and gun teams and never had a problem dealing with armored opponents. I played a BAR (based on the boxed set that came out) off and on when I wanted a change of pace. I won some and I lost some with it. Never the total panic domination that some many people whine about. In the last EW league I was in we had maybe 3 players with full armored forces as their primary army. Only one of them made the top 5 and he was #5. The two forces battling for the top spot at the end: My divisional cavalry squadron and a polish infantry/cavalry force. Positions 3 and 4 in the league: Infantry forces (French and British). So I far prefer playing in EW.

Back to playing Midwar now and already bored with the fact that the only things that I can get an armored save on are churhhill tanks, which I have none of anyway. Sigh....

Skriker

Back to playing Midwar now and already bored with the fact that the only things that I can get an armored save on are churhhill tanks, which I have none of anyway. Sigh....

Yeah, because "every tank is a tiger, every gun an 88" right?

Shermans are nice tanks in midwar, nice anti-tank, lots of MG dice and well-armoured. As a brit, you can get them in trained and veteran versions. It can easily hold it's own against the other medium tanks of the era.

I believe that the Sherman was classed heavy when it entered the war, then the Tiger rolled into town.

Illumini wrote:

Back to playing Midwar now and already bored with the fact that the only things that I can get an armored save on are churhhill tanks, which I have none of anyway. Sigh....

Yeah, because "every tank is a tiger, every gun an 88" right?

Shermans are nice tanks in midwar, nice anti-tank, lots of MG dice and well-armoured. As a brit, you can get them in trained and veteran versions. It can easily hold it's own against the other medium tanks of the era.

No not every tank is a tiger or every gun an 88. Shermans aren't half bad in MW, but they aren't cheap either. The thing I guess I am jealous of is the the germans and russians have decent armor from EW through to LW. No one complains about any of the british or american armored lists from MW on. Why is that? So many people complain about the BAR, but that is only because the Brits actually have an effective armored presence for a change.

Battlefront just changed the points and such for the BAR in Blitzkrieg and the Cruiser tank regiment in Hellfire in Back; putting out an errata download. They gave in to the complaint demands, which I think is silly, but I guess they are tired of hearing about it all the time. So I can't blame them...

Skriker

notprop wrote:I believe that the Sherman was classed heavy when it entered the war, then the Tiger rolled into town.

No, the Sherman was always a medium tank. It was in the same class as tanks like the T-34 and Panzer III and IV.

Skriker wrote:
Battlefront just changed the points and such for the BAR in Blitzkrieg and the Cruiser tank regiment in Hellfire in Back; putting out an errata download. They gave in to the complaint demands, which I think is silly, but I guess they are tired of hearing about it all the time. So I can't blame them...

Skriker

It's not the first time Battlefront has errata'd something. At least they actually listen to their playerbase in a lot of cases. I don't think it's silly to change something due to player feedback, especially if it's something that needs to be changed. In fairness, there has also been times that they've really taken a long time to make some pertinent changes as well, but generally they are pretty quick to adjust things that need fixing.

They changed it? That will help a lot for early war popularity

They gave in to the complaint demands, which I think is silly, but I guess they are tired of hearing about it all the time. So I can't blame them...

How can it be silly to listen to your users? Listening to users is the key to creating successful products in so many different businesses, I hardly think that listening to the users is wrong in the miniature business.

When lots of people give up on early war because of one list, and the general consensus is that the list is too good (and incredibly boring to play against), then it makes perfect sense to change it.


Edit: I play Italians, stop complaining about your British/US tanks, I have sardine-cans with machine-guns and pea-shooters strapped to them through the entire war

A company can only playtest so much, and they're responsible for playtesting many lists in each new book they put out.

Eventually, something slips through and it's clear they didn't anticipate how powerful early war tank swarms would be coming from the British.

Oh, and the Early and Mid war tankers actually tended to like the Sherman, it really was a solid and reliable tank for that time, and it was really well supplied with parts and ammunition. However the real problem was that by late war it was just extremely out of date due to the Germans and Soviets getting into such an arms tech war. All armies that used them had to come up with something in late war to increase its usefulness. For the US and everyone it was the 76mm Sherman with the high velocity gun, for the Brits it was the Firefly with the 17 pdr gun.

The reason why they liked the Sherman is because they finally had a tank that fired a useful HE round to take on ATG's that didn't break down all the time, that didn't make it a good tank, just a better tank then what they'd had.

British Tank design throughout the war can only be described as shocking. I would recommend a book called "Death by Design" to anybody really interested in the subject, its a real eye opener.

Illumini wrote:

Edit: I play Italians, stop complaining about your British/US tanks, I have sardine-cans with machine-guns and pea-shooters strapped to them through the entire war

LOL! Agreed; I play Italians as well and be pretty much shocked by an player complaining about Brit armor forces when compared to what I run.

There's nothing wrong with them listening to their customers, it's what can make them successful, however, they also have to listen to what they're not saying and filter a bit.
They need to stick with what makes them consistent and then deliver plus 1%....so far I've had no complaints, however at least they are responsive and that's a good thing.

Well, MW seemed to be the consensus so..we stumped up and brought Blitzkrieg instead! The original plan is to fight through the period, then to MW then LW.

Having just got my hands on it I can say that I am pretty impressed so far. It seems pretty well laid out, easy to comprehend. Looking at building up a few lists now, probably around 600 750 pts each.

Armoured rifle or pionners for me it seems, I may well change my mind.

Illumini wrote:..........................
Edit: I play Italians, stop complaining about your British/US tanks, I have sardine-cans with machine-guns and pea-shooters strapped to them through the entire war

To be fair, the Italians didn't have to put up with it for that long.

Illumini wrote:Edit: I play Italians, stop complaining about your British/US tanks, I have sardine-cans with machine-guns and pea-shooters strapped to them through the entire war

Point taken!

And highlighted by an EW game Italians vs. British where my opponents M13/40s assaulted a heavy machine gun platoon and lost and were wiped out...

Oddly I am looking forward to putting together a captured Italian tank regiment from Hellfire and Back for my brits. Just want to do something different.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skriker wrote:

Illumini wrote:Edit: I play Italians, stop complaining about your British/US tanks, I have sardine-cans with machine-guns and pea-shooters strapped to them through the entire war

Point taken!

And highlighted by an EW game Italians vs. British where my opponents M13/40s assaulted a heavy machine gun platoon and lost and were wiped out...

I really feel for those Italians who were stuck on the Russian front with their light tanks and semovente 47s against T-34s and worse. Eep...at least the guns on the Italian tanks could take out British tanks they faced.

Oddly I am looking forward to putting together a captured Italian tank regiment from Hellfire and Back for my brits. Just want to do something different.

Skriker