Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Vindicares ignore all targeting restrictions.  What is a targeting restriction?

Firing through CC?

Firing into CC?

I know he can pick out any model in a squad or a lone IC that is in range and LOS.  He also doesn't roll for target priority.

He can't fire while he is in CC because he doesn't ignore shooting rules.

 

You can target any model which is in range and LoS, regardless of targeting restrictions. So you can fire at someone in CC if you can see them, but not through it, and you aren't given the ability to divide your shots between two targets.   It's right there in the DH and WH codexes.

I have rules lawyers saying "whats a Restriction". LOS is not a restriction. Woods block LOS and you don't ignore that. So CC blocks LOS and you can't fire through it.

Correct. You ignore the restriction that you cannot fire into a close combat, but you cannot ignore the fact that models in a close combat block LOS.

What that means is you can target any model in a close combat that the Vindicare can draw a direct LOS too (just not through any other model in the combat). Generally that means you can target the outer "rim" of guys in the combat that are facing the Vindicare.

Yakface please dont' take the next questions the wrong way. Most of the time here I'm looked as an *donkey*but it's really the way I type.

So if no other CC model or models blocks an enemy base 100% he can fire into CC.

I'm going back to 3rd for a second because I want to get things clear. Could the Vindicare shoot past screening units? Would that be the same thing as CC in 4th ed? I wish restrictions was more defined then it is.

Look at his rules, they say:

"In addition, the Vindicare can target any model in range and line of sight, regardless of any targeting restrictions (such as independent characters within 6" of another unit."

So a Vindicare can ignore "any" targeting restrictions besides range and line of sight. Simple!

There are two different restrictions regarding close combats in 4th edition.

1) You cannot shoot into a close combat (that would be a targeting restriction).
2) Models locked in combat block LOS.


So the Vindicare may ignore #1, but still cannot draw LOS through models locked in combat.

So again (like I said in my last reply), if he can draw a clear LOS to a particular model in CC (the line of sight does not cross over any other model locked in combat), then he can shoot the model in close combat.


Cool?

Cool.

Ok here is another question.  It says that the Vindicare can pick the loses in a squad.  Does that mean that if he can see one base that every enemy model in that unit can be targeted?

No; LOS rules prevent removal of models not in line of sight. Therefore, he can shoot anything he can see, and can only force removal of models he can see.

I agree with Antonin.

He ignores targeting restrictions but is bound by range and LOS. . .therefore his target (model) must still be within range and LOS.

Ok to totally understand this and to not abuse it.

If I'm with in 12 inches of a CC and I can see one enemy base I can shoot twice with my pistol and only kill the one I can see. If I can see two bases then I can kill two people. If I just happen to see the whole squad I can shoot all of them and then pick the loses.

I believe that is correct. I never thought about using a vindicare that way, firing into CC, but that could potentially make a big difference. The extra wounds caused by the vindi's shooting could be enough to lower the unit below half after the CC, making those tests harder to pass.
If the Vindi is behind the CC (between CC and the opposing armies table edge), and the enemy breaks, could he therefore cause that fleeing unit to be wiped out? Sorry if that sounds stupid and would be hard to pull off, but I was just curious.

You have a window you have to fall back in and 1 models is not big enough to stop them. A vehicle or unit could however.

Now if one model fall back and the Vin is blocking by the rules the model falling back would die.

Ok. But he could keep them rallying next turn (within 6"). Sorry for kinda highjacking your post, but thanks for the info.

Best use for firing into CC with the Vindy is taking out the Power fist.

The Vindicare LOS must also pass through the actual model you are attempting to target, not just the base. This prevents jerks from taking advantage of players with most excellent creative abilities.

This is at least one of those times when we can fall back onto the rules because there doesn't seem to be any ambiguity there. the models will actually block LOS up to their height characteristic and out to the edges of their bases. So, modelling doesn't come into play here. Just pure rulebook enforced magic cylinder baby!

Correct. You just have to see the base. Any part of it.

the models will actually block LOS up to their height characteristic and out to the edges of their bases

Actually, the rules make no mention of the models blocking LOS out to the edge of their bases. It merely states that they block LOS up to the Height of the participants.

So no magic cylinder here... just an undefined area that blocks LOS to the height of the tallest model involved in the combat.

Ok just so we are talking about the same thing because this is going in a different direction. We are not talking about shooting past it. We are talking about shooting into it. You just need to see the enemy base to shot them in CC.

You just need to see the enemy base to shot them in CC.

No. LOS is never drawn to a base. As per the rules on page 21, LOS is drawn to the body of the model.

The only difference close combat makes by the RAW is that the LOS through the combat is blocked up to the height of the tallest participant. No mention is made of LOS to the model being any different to normal.

LOL. Some of you people are drawing at straws. Ok this is what they mean by that rule. You have to see the base to fire at the model. You can't fire a foot that is over the base, you can't fire at a guy with a banner that can be seen over a small wall. A base is a base is a base. Your model is on the base. If i can see the base I can fire at you.

I have guys on jumppacks that are on bases that are 3 inches tall. You can't fire at them behind a wall just because my guys can be seen. That is what the rule is for.

If I can see your base I can fire at you even if you have no part of your model on that part of the base.

You have to see the base to fire at the model.

I realise that even asking is the height of futility, but how about a page reference for that rule?

There isn't a single rule that tells you to draw a LOS to the model's base. But please, feel free to try to find one.

I disagree with you Insaniak. The base is clearly part of the model, and when locked in combat the model blocks LOS up to a specific height category. That means you cannot shoot over any part of that model unless the firing model is a larger size category (or shooting at a larger size category model) than the model(s) locked in combat.

A magic cylinder is indeed in effect once models are locked in close combat.

That means you cannot shoot over any part of that model unless the firing model is a larger size category (or shooting at a larger size category model) than the model(s) locked in combat.

That's a fair point. So yes, so far as shooting through the model is concerned, there's a cylinder.

However, drawing a LOS to a model locked in combat, you would still need a LOS to the target's body, as the rules only address drawing a LOS through the model, not to it... so in that situation you would use the normal rules for determining LOS.

We fully agree on that point (as usual), sir.