Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have the Helms Deep fortress that gamesworkshop produced and I'm thinking about playing some siege games.

I have a question which can either be answered from people's experiences and from just ideas that they have thought of?

Do people play with equal sized forces? I'm naturally inclined to think that when you're attacking you're bound to lose more models before you breach the door/put significant numbers on the walls?

Or do people play rules that once a certain amount of models die/ any models that die can respawn at the being of each turn/ every set number of turns etc.?

I've played some different styled sieges.

1) You have a defender holding a point. The enemies need to exterminate all of the defenders and take a point in the defense. However, the offenders respawn every 2 turns at the edge of the table. The defenders have to survive a certain amount of turns to win.

2) I once did a siege where I (the attacker) got a 1000 point force, with 2 siege engines. My opponent (the defender) got 800 points and a fancy castle. Generally, the defender gets fewer or an equal number of units to field.

I was having thoughts about the first one myself. Can you remember how many turns the defender had to last?

Historically (I'm talking age of Caesar) it was so that the prerequisites for absolute victory against fortified opponents was 3:1 attacking, when equally trained troops were against each other. I can't cite reference because i can't remember where i read it. i might even be mixing things up. However, I'd say for an even game, 2:1 or even 2.5:1 should be used.

deathstreak2000 wrote:I have the Helms Deep fortress that gamesworkshop produced and I'm thinking about playing some siege games.

I have a question which can either be answered from people's experiences and from just ideas that they have thought of?

Do people play with equal sized forces? I'm naturally inclined to think that when you're attacking you're bound to lose more models before you breach the door/put significant numbers on the walls?

Or do people play rules that once a certain amount of models die/ any models that die can respawn at the being of each turn/ every set number of turns etc.?

I find that a force that is between 1.5 to 2 times the side defending is an ample attacker having played several sieges myself in LOTR. Also depends on the quality of said attackers/defenders.

Cheers guys!

I have done sieges before when i was about 10 years old but I really didn't understand the rules back then and me and my brother just done what seemed right and it was damn fun!

I'll either use the respawn way or just give the attackers more models, either 1.5/2 times.

Also, I just had a thought about raising the bow limit for the defending for to 50% instead of 33% as when you're defending a city/castle/fortress you're likely to have more bows. Or does that seem unfair?

Twice the points value is a good ratio.


Frankly, a more important limit may be to limit the number of shields the defender can have. Ladders can become deadly for the attacker as the defender just has to win to have a 50% chance of you falling to the ground.

deathstreak2000 wrote:I was having thoughts about the first one myself. Can you remember how many turns the defender had to last?

I think 8-10


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, on raising the bow limit, think about it this way:

The more bows you have, the worse your chances are of surviving the melee tides when (and they will) breach the walls.

Here are the rules I used for my Helm's Deep. Just to note this is for the whole Helm's Deep model, not just the outer wall.


DEFENDERS
[450pts] Rohan Defenders
[350pts] Elf Allies
[450pts] The Cavalry

ATTACKERS
[250pts] Raiders of Isengard – later recieving reinforcements: [350pts] Isengard Wrecking Crew
[200pts] Uruk Invaders – later recieving reinforcements: [300pts] Legion of the White Hand
[200pts] Isengard Siege – later recieving reinforcements: [250pts] Isengard Demolition

Deployment
The Rohan Defenders and Elf Allies have time to prepare, and can deploy anywhere inside Helms Deep.
The Uruk Invaders and Uruk Siege deploy outside Helps Deep within 12′ of the far left corner.

The Cavalry deploy on the furthest right end of the expansion board and fight a separate battle with The Raiders of Isengard until they make it to the main board.
They should hurry to break-through to the main board before the gates are breached, while the Raiders must slow them and kill the riders if possible. If the Cavalry make it to the main board, they may deploy anywhere within 6′ of the far edge.

Phase 2- Deployment of reinforcements
When news that the Cavalry has reached the main board of Helms Deep comes to Saruman, he himself will set out to bring an End to the Age of Man.
On a roll of 5+ Saruman arrives with The White Hand reinforcements, Demolition teams and an Isengard Wrecking Crew including Trolls. They deploy on the far edge from the corner away from the Cavalry’s arrival.

Winning
The game is played until one of the Major Victory conditions is reached. At that point, the points from Minor Victories is tallied. Note that there are two Major Victory conditions for Good and only 1 for Evil.

OPTIONAL: Minor Victories for points – Good
5) The Rohan hold out long enough for reinforcements (Rohan)
5) The Relief Cavalry reach the castle (Cavalry)
5) The First Wave is destroyed (Elves)
5) Saruman is Killed (All)

OPTIONAL: Minor Victories for points – Evil
5) 5 Mounted Knights are killed (Isengard Raiders)
5) The gate or wall is breached (Siege/Wrecking Crew)
5) The inner door is breached (Wrecking Crew)
5) All Rohan warriors are killed (Raiders)
5) All Elf warriors are killed (Siege/Wrecking Crew)

Major Victory – Good
20) All enemy Siege units (Berserkers, Engineers and Trolls) are destroyed before the inner door is breached
20) Saruman is Slain! Isengard will flee after 75% casulaties unless Saruman survives to lead them

Major Victory – Evil
20) All Rohan models, Elven Archers, Gimli and Theoden are slain

Special Rules
The Cavalry Arrive! On the turn that the cavalry arrive on the main board, Good gets priority automatically.
Secret Gate: The Cavalry may enter Helms Deep by a secret gate at any point along the wall chosen by the player.
Murder Holes: Thrown weapons are harder to dodge and have +1 to hit when thrown through a Murder Hole above the gate.

Here's the idea, if your making it small your attacking force is normally bigger as they have to march forward while exposed and storm the castle. More pictures here if wanted: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/316056.page

Cool pic. What made me smile is that I also used to use my table tennis table as my battleboard

I might just have to steal your battle, Яîηgwяâith.