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Hi all.

I'm currently trying to put together a 2. SS Panzergrenadier (Das Reich) List and I've aimed for between 1500-1750points.
(I chose SS because i like to have both mortars and HMG. If anyone knows any other list these can be included in then let me know).

I know you get quality rather than quantity with SS but im struggling to get my current models into a list due to points restrictions.

I currently have:

HQ with:
CMD Panzerfaust and 2 Panzerschreck teams - 130pts

1 full strength Panzergrenadier Platoon with CMD/SMG/Panzerfaust, and one SMG/Panzerfaust team - 240pts
1 understrength Panzergrenadier Platoon with CMD/SMG/Panzerfaust and one SMG/Panzerfaust team - 175pts
1 HMG Platoon with 2 teams - 80pts

4 8cm mortars - 150pts
2 PaK40 anti-tank - 120pts

3 Panzer IV H - 325pts
2 StuG IV - 145pts
4 Nebelwerfers - 215pts

Total points - 1585

I think its a decent enough list and I've left space to add recce or anti-air support to bring it up to 1750 but it just doesnt seem enough. Maybe thats the challenge with German's in LW but it seems you run out of points really quickly.

That kind of total points values is typical. Please don't say 1500 because then I'll have to cut more from my already thin list.

I think most events are now 1500pts, however I don't play events. The group of players that I game with pay at 1750pts.

Heer Panzergrenadiers in V3 and Grey Wolf for 250 points can have Heavy Platoon with up to 4 HMGs with 2 Mortars (251/2 which also can be dismounted as per Portee). This platoon can also take two 251/9 Stummels. And they can combat attach to Combat Platoons.

Yer running out of points quickly because you are Fearless Vets.

Any of the infantry based lists out of Grey Wolf will get you the mortars and machine guns you put as conditions.

Grenadiers, PGrenadiers, Sturm...any of these would be options.

A few things to consider though in list building. Many times two "little" units are not going to bring you better results than one "full" one. Case in point, your IVs and StuGs. I would combine them and make one full size unit.

Also, your Nebels. I think three tubes are typically enough, and you could possibly consider dropping them entirely. Most lists need only one unit for smoke and pinning as there seldom is enough targets in later turns, either due to casualites, or combat, to justify two units. You are also -seriously- over paying if that is the true points costs. Grey Wolf lists with SS Nebels pay less than -half- of that, though I am betting ratings are a bit different.

German infantry is also something I don't like skimping on platoon size. FJ I will understrength if only because an understength FJ is still as strong as a full strength grenadier platoon.

But four stands is just begging to be picked up easily.

Some other thoughts. German armor is typically blessed with protected ammo. These rerolls really help a CV unit to unbail when needed.

(Using Grey Wolf points costs here, the disparity is higher with your 2nd SS list you are building off of.) If you look at a CV unit of German Protected Ammo, you are only not going to unbail 25% of the time. With a FV unit of the same, you will not unbail 11% of the time, but are paying about 10 points more per tank.

Is that alot? Well, it is a couple HQ panzerschrecks. Also, consider that with the new BBG book, most shermans are going to be shooting AT 13 at your FA 6 on PZIVs. Even at range, that is, at best, going to be a bail.

What I am getting at is that, typically, in med armor German late war lists, a fearless rating is typically overrated, and you can probably get more use out of a CV list. In the AT 13 world, Panthers are a different story as they don't have protected ammo. Strange that given the choices in game, your tankers would rather get back into the thinner armored PzIVs than the thicker Panthers.

Anyway, I am digressing. Pick up Grey Wolf, or at the very least, Easy Army Grey Wolf and then pick it up if it suits your style. (Just checked and the Kastner list pdf is updated and free on the FoW website if you want to start there. Some interesting options.) Look hard at CV, especially if you want a decent armor contengent to your force.

Hmm thats a lot of food for thought.

The more I learn about the game I become more reluctant to use SS.

I've got the full hardcover rule book on order so I'll have a look at the Heer Panzergrenadiers when I receive it.

One question though, and it may sound silly but I'm really not sure of the answer. Can you use a Grey Wolf based army in a Normandy scenario I.E against 101st Airbourne or British Armour Div?

Generally unless you're playing a hardcore group, all late war was designed to fight any late war army

Same with mid and early war

Cwen wrote: I've got the full hardcover rule book on order so I'll have a look at the Heer Panzergrenadiers when I receive it.

I'd suggest You registering at easyarmy.com , as all Version 3 (hardcover book) army lists are offficially for free there - so You can take a look right now.

There isn't any need to be reluctant with SS, just recognize they play differently.

Thier points costs are tied up in the fact that they are fearless vets -and- they are usually machine gun infantry stands.

The limited numbers means you can't be everywhere, but the concentrated firepower means when you are there you can typically bring the hurt in a small space. It usually also means that you need to go for the quick kill if you can, cause you don't have the numbers for a long war of attrition.

Stick to cover, use storm trooper to cover ground, but dont take risks that will leave you exposed. You have to be ready to pounce on an opponents mistep.

I think armormed transports are also something to explore as the greater mobility and extra machine guns really benifit FV troops the most.