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HQ:
Castellan Crowe (150 points)

Elites:
Vindicare Assassin (145 points)

Troops:
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)

Heavy Support:
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)

Total: 1834

So this is a new Purifier list I came up with. I was looking at the basic list which was everything minus the Vindicare Assassin. I noticed the list lacks a lot of ways to deal with AV14. Adding more Psyrifleman Dreadnoughts wasn't going to alleviate this problem. I have a bunch of points leftover which I do not know what to do with. I was thinking of investing them into a Warding Stave on one of the squads so they could act as a mini tarpit if needed. Maybe I've overlooked something. Let me know what you think.

You can only take one Vindicare Assassin.

Dunwich wrote:You can only take one Vindicare Assassin.

yep, got some points you need to sort out. I'd stay away from warding staves, but Ive just never had any luck with them

That's why I hate using Battlescribe sometimes...I forgot about that...Hmm.

as said before you can only take one vindicare, I suggest you spend those points on making two of those dreads venerable and the remaining points use them to give some staves or to MC some hammers, put some lights on those rhinos.
you could also spend the point on more purifiers in each squad, you have the space inside the rhinos.
finally you could buy an inquisitor and henchmen, like and ordo xenos inquisitor with nade hanging out with deathcult assasins, or an ordo hereticus with psyocculus hanging with some HB or PC servitors, a jokaero, psykers and cheap warriors....

Inquisitor with Death Cult Assassins sounds like a good idea, but I feel like it does the same job as the Purifiers. Order Xenos Inquisitor is a great idea and I could easily put him in one of the Rhinos, but are the Death Cult Assassins really necessary? They are essentially doing the same role that the Purifiers do in CC. It seems like the best option at the moment though. I know that making the Dreadnoughts venerable is a great option, but I don't know if I want to spend so many points doing that.

Edit:

I just looked into adding the Xenos Inquisitor with grenades and DCA. I only get 4 DCA and the Inquisitor in a Razorback with Psybolt Ammo. Not the optimum amount of DCA in my opinion. I find a squad of 5 or 6 is great, but 4 isn't enough.

Add more guns! Rifleman dreads or razorbacks. I'd go with razorbacks personally. Yes.... I realize you can't fire psycanons out of razorbacks. Not sure it really matter when you can disembark and put out more shots plus create twice as many targets. Why is AV14 a problem? You can focus fire and rend them to death if need be.

here is a suggestion if you are afraid of AV 14, the strongest aspect of the grey knights to take care of that is hammer-handed hammers... create a squad of hammer-wielding purifiers in a rhino. This will allow for more anti-vehicle. However, I would suggest to not worry about anti-av14. Most of the av14 targets are russ tanks, which are so numerous is doesn't matter per-se and the land-raider which is essentially a melee monster delivery system. In either case, you compromise too much to stop some thing or you have a melee oriented unit to combat them in either case (the purifiers)

I agree with the Razorbacks. I've thought about that too since it gives about the same volume of fire as 2 Psycannons in a Rhino, but I'm not sure how advantageous it is to expose 5 Marines just so they can pump out 4 more shots. It seems like its a quick and easy way for them to die.

AV14 is still hard to deal with when it comes to Psycannons and Assault Cannons. Dreadnoughts can only hope to glance it. I'm worried about AV14 because a lot of people at my FLGS run Land Raiders. Its a consideration I have to take into account.

Drex, I'm not sure by what you mean when you say, "you compromise too much to stop some thing or you have a melee oriented unit to combat them in either case (the purifiers"

With that many psycannons plus the Vindicare, I think you should be ok against AV14.

Psycannons put out a lot of shots, eventually you're going to get some 6s to penetrate, then with rending you will usually penetrate. Even if you roll a 1 on the D3, you're still going to glance.

The alternative, which was mentioned above (and the one I like best), is swapping the rhinos for las/plas or TL las razorbacks. This solves your AV 14 "problem" but also makes better use of the "army within an army" concept.

The 6 purifier squads can operate quiet well outside of their transports, and yet still stick close enough to them to either benefit from cover or hide out of LOS completely. Much better target saturation this way, as well as adding some AP 1/2 to your list and not forcing yourself to rely on rending to do all the work at range.

Additionally, if you saturate with las/plas, vindicare suddenly becomes far less necessary; giving you another 145 points to reinvest in other aspects of your force.

Lascannons aren't that great against Av14. Psycannons would be at least equally as useful, if not more so, and he already has a TON of them. You still need a 6 to pen Av14 with a Lascannon and with only one shot per cannon, the problem is anything but solved.

As I said before, there is already enough Psycannons, plus a Vindicare, with hammers in every squad to fall back on. The only way you can get anything more reliable than what you already have is with melta.

Dunwich wrote:Lascannons aren't that great against Av14. Psycannons would be at least equally as useful, if not more so, and he already has a TON of them. You still need a 6 to pen Av14 with a Lascannon and with only one shot per cannon, the problem is anything but solved.

As I said before, there is already enough Psycannons, plus a Vindicare, with hammers in every squad to fall back on. The only way you can get anything more reliable than what you already have is with melta.

You're not wrong.

That being said, adding them certainly won't take anything away from his list. AND he has the points for it. It is less about AV 14 and more about overall utility. Even with vindy he's still 166 points short of 2k. So the discussion evolves from one about handling AV 14 into one about how to optimize his list with the points he has left over.

My vote is for dropping the assassin all together so he can free up even more points. I also worry about his model count. It's running about 10-15 models above typical Draigowing load outs, which is bad, and also gives up far to many kill points for it's lack of durability, which is also bad. As good as purifiers are, they still die like marines. And 30 of them isn't enough to carry the day.

Everything said about Psycannons is true. I know that they are actually better than Lascannons against AV14. Heck even the Assault Cannon without Psybolt Ammo is slightly better than the Lascannon against AV14 IIRC from the mathhammer.

Bean's Herald, I know that 5 Marines per squad isn't that durable which is why I know getting out of a Razorback to fire 2 Psycannons isn't worth the trade off. 5 Marines die off too quickly. IIRC one of the top 16 lists for Adepticon ran only Crowe, Six 7 man Purifier Squads in a transport (can't remember if it was Razorbacks or Rhinos), with only 3 Dreadnoughts. It essentially only added 12 bodies to what I already have. I'm not sure what else I could do at this point. The more I look at the Purifier build, the weaker to me it looks.

And crow/purifier lists CAN be strong. In fact, they generally ARE strong, which is why they are popular. CC monsters with the potential for torrential firepower and a 3+ save? Whats not to love? They're probably one of the very best all-around units in the game.

So it becomes a matter of where to spend the rest of your points. But 12 bodies can make a huge difference. Imagine having 10 interceptors in your list. How much utility does that give you? How much versatility? What about a cheap inquisitor and a Chimera full of deathcult assassins? Servitors with meltas? Jokero? Storm shield acolytes? There are options here that you can use to round out your force.

Your issue was never, and still isn't, an issue with AV 14. The psycannons can and will bring those targets down, eventually. And hammers can do the same job up close. The only weapons which have better than average effectiveness against that kind of defense are S10, lance, or get 2d6 or more for armor pen.

If you want to keep your transports basic and cost effective there is nothing at all wrong with that. But what about making them their own, unique threat? What if they are there to do more than get your purifiers into midfield?

Bean's Herald you bring up a lot of good points.

I'm leaning towards Death Cult Assassins at the moment with an Order Xenos Inquisitor, but in order to do that I'd have to get rid of the Vindicare. I feel the DCA will be scarier on the board than the Vindicare plus some other unit.

Here are two builds. One uses DCA while the other uses Interceptors. I like the idea of interceptors since they can do late game objective contesting.

Interceptor Build:

HQ:
Castellan Crowe (150 points)

Troops:
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)

Fast Attack:
10 Interceptors with 2 Psycannons, 1 Hammer and Psybolt Ammo (310 points)

Heavy Support:
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)

Total: 1999 points

Death Cult Assassins:
HQ:
Castellan Crowe (150 points)
Order Xenos Inquisitor with Rad and Psychotroke Grenades, Psyker Upgrade with Hammerhand (85 points)

Elites:
Psyrifleman Venerable Dreadnought (195 points)
5 Deathcult Assassins in a Razorback with Assault Cannon with Psybolt Ammo (160 points)


Troops:
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)
5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, and 1 Hammer in a Rhino (189 points)

Heavy Support:
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)
Psyrifleman Dreadnought (135 points)

Total: 1994 points

With the list with the DCA, I had to cut back since DCA work better in a Razorback than a Chimera. I would take the Chimera, but I feel its better at long range support which confuses the roles of the DCA and the transport. So I had to drop the squad down to 5 so I could fit the Inquisitor with them. At that point I was still left with a ton of points so I made one of the Dreadnoughts Venerable just for the sake of doing so. Let me know what you guys think.

With the interceptors I might drop the psycannons, as they don't get the rending rule when fired on the move. I might trade them out for halberds or falchions , combat squad them, and run them as counter-charge units. The psybolt ammo is a nice touch for them too, but should be seen as a nice bonus, not a must-take option.

With your DCA list, you will probably want to keep their ride out of LOS behind some of your other tanks. If the DCA have to foot slog, they are sunk. So you can again save some points by dropping the weapons on that transport, or, maybe better, by loading them in a chimera for the 12 front AV. Tossing in a couple Crusaders for their storm shields will add significantly to the units durability.

Power armor is a must for your Inquisitor. You should be able to scrounge up 8 points somewhere I also really like the idea of him being able to join up with Crow. Crow cant join other units, as he himself is not an independent character, but there is no such prohibition on other independent characters joining in with him. Makes him less of a tax. He's hard to use well on his own, but with the grenades on your Inq, together they becomes a major CC threat (read: ). I also like the Ven dread. Gives your opponent more targets to choose from and more opportunities to make mistakes.

On Vindicare: Some people love him, some hate him. Some games he is simply god like, and in others he gets one hit on turn two. Too much variance in his usefulness for my tastes. And besides, at best he gets to fire what, 6 shots in a game? He is amazing in concept, and definitely a significant threat, but his performance from game to game isn't consistent enough for me to feel like I can rely on him.

Bean's Herald wrote:With the interceptors I might drop the psycannons, as they don't get the rending rule when fired on the move. I might trade them out for halberds or falchions , combat squad them, and run them as counter-charge units. The psybolt ammo is a nice touch for them too, but should be seen as a nice bonus, not a must-take option.

They are always rending. Whether you move or not. I'd recommend against falchions, halberds are ok but a bit too pricey for one attack base as well. The hammer on the justicar is always a good call. And I agree the the psybolt ammo is used best as a bonus, if you have 20 points spare. Although if you are using them to jump into the rear arc of a vehicle, S5 stormbolters compliment the psycannons not too badly (S5 against R A 10 remember, not bad with that many shots).

Bean's Herald wrote:With your DCA list, you will probably want to keep their ride out of LOS behind some of your other tanks. If the DCA have to foot slog, they are sunk. So you can again save some points by dropping the weapons on that transport, or, maybe better, by loading them in a chimera for the 12 front AV. Tossing in a couple Crusaders for their storm shields will add significantly to the units durability.

Reserving is also a good idea if they are being used as a counterattacking unit. I'd recommend a Chimera and a few crusaders, but thats just me, you may find the razorback is a better bet for you.

Bean's Herald wrote:Power armor is a must for your Inquisitor. You should be able to scrounge up 8 points somewhere I also really like the idea of him being able to join up with Crow. Crow cant join other units, as he himself is not an independent character, but there is no such prohibition on other independent characters joining in with him. Makes him less of a tax. He's hard to use well on his own, but with the grenades on your Inq, together they becomes a major CC threat (read: ). I also like the Ven dread. Gives your opponent more targets to choose from and more opportunities to make mistakes.

ICs cannot join a unit consisting of one model;
'Independent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures)' p.48

And Power Armour does have its values, just remember that there is a lot that can ID a T3 IC in combat, even if he's in PA

Bean's Herald wrote:On Vindicare: Some people love him, some hate him. Some games he is simply god like, and in others he gets one hit on turn two. Too much variance in his usefulness for my tastes. And besides, at best he gets to fire what, 6 shots in a game? He is amazing in concept, and definitely a significant threat, but his performance from game to game isn't consistent enough for me to feel like I can rely on him.

I've had pretty much the opposite experience with Vindicares, they either make their points back in one (maybe 2) shots, and in doing so significantly impair my opponent's strategy, or they die in one or two turns, but with a 2+ save from going to ground they soak up a lot of fire in the mean time

Well, DCA's in a Razorback are rather pointless. I'd mount them into a Rhino. A Razorback should stay back for shooting purposes.

@ motyak

Are you sure about paycannons always being rending? "Assault 2 or Heavy 4, rending." I assumed they lost the rending rule if being fired as an assault weapon. At least, that's how I read it.

Good call on the IC. I don't personally run a crow list, so I'm not as crisp on his tactics.

The only way I've found to increase the vindicares' reliability is to take a tech marine and pray that there is a ruin in your deployment zone. Easy enough to ensure in friendly home games, less so in a tournament setting. Even then the dice gods may not favor you...

How is DCA in a Razorback pointless? I'm just curious how that's the case when the Razorback acts like a midfielder with its Assault Cannon and its easier to disembark from it than a Chimera?

I'm considering running a Chimera with 7 DCA and 3 Crusaders. I feel like that might be overkill though in one vehicle.

Bean's Herald wrote:@ motyak

Are you sure about paycannons always being rending? "Assault 2 or Heavy 4, rending." I assumed they lost the rending rule if being fired as an assault weapon. At least, that's how I read it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/444541.page#4181417 death reapers answer sums it up enough that no one else had to post. It would be more confusing if not for the comma.

Bean's Herald wrote:
The only way I've found to increase the vindicares' reliability is to take a tech marine and pray that there is a ruin in your deployment zone. Easy enough to ensure in friendly home games, less so in a tournament setting. Even then the dice gods may not favor you...

And he's not only good if he manages to pop a land raider. He can be used to intimidate enemy vehicles, especially in a coteaz list where you have 2 chances to sieze, and help dictate the enemies deployment (forcing a vehicle to deploy somewhere where it isn't optimum for example). As mentioned picking nobz and commissars out is always good, taking away Lysander's shield with a turbo penetrator (not reliable, but always funny if you then sick some DCAs on him. Eternal Warrior THAT.), or the usual blowing the crap out of tanks.

But then again, he could get fragged by a LC turn one every game you play with him, and then you drop him. Which makes perfect sense. Some people have luck with him and pass the 2+ or 3+ cover save, other people are just god-awfully unlucky. But make sure if he does die, if he has taken up a lot of the enemy's AT fire to try and ID him, then you are one turn ahead in popping tanks still.

Well, now, that clarification on the psycannon rules will have me retooling my list as well. Thank you.