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2012/07/31 12:21:25
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
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Which is the more senior in rank?? A Imperial Army(Great Crusade Era) Lord Commander or a Space Marine Primarch?
A Lord Commander is the Emperor's chosen representative of a battle front, yet a Primarch is a Demi-God and one of the Emperor's sons.
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in Inquisitor, a Space Marine can take a krak grenade, pull out the pin, eat the grenade, throw the pin, and the thrown pin will actually kill a normal man, whereas the Space Marine won't even have indigestion. This has actually happened in a game. Hell, a marine can throw his bolt shells and do more damage than by shooting his boltgun |
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2012/07/31 12:30:30
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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During the Great Crusade? I would say it'd be a Primarch, though I admit I am only going by historical descriptions of the Astartes' role in that era, and their seniority over the Imperial Army.
Did the Imperium even have non-Astartes leaders above battalion level back then?
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2012/07/31 12:34:41
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
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Lynata wrote:During the Great Crusade? I would say it'd be a Primarch, though I admit I am only going by historical descriptions of the Astartes' role in that era, and their seniority over the Imperial Army.
Did the Imperium even have non-Astartes leaders above battalion level back then?
Lord Commander Namatjira, of the 670th Expedition Fleet.
And he seems to boss about Alpharius a bit.
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in Inquisitor, a Space Marine can take a krak grenade, pull out the pin, eat the grenade, throw the pin, and the thrown pin will actually kill a normal man, whereas the Space Marine won't even have indigestion. This has actually happened in a game. Hell, a marine can throw his bolt shells and do more damage than by shooting his boltgun |
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2012/07/31 12:42:07
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Lynata wrote:During the Great Crusade? I would say it'd be a Primarch, though I admit I am only going by historical descriptions of the Astartes' role in that era, and their seniority over the Imperial Army.
Did the Imperium even have non-Astartes leaders above battalion level back then?
There were definitely some very senior non-Astartes during the great crusade, Lord Commander Teng Namatjira of the 670th expedition in Legion being the first example who comes to mind. Though the novels depict the primarchs ordering practically everybody but Malcador around, there were only eighteen of them, so it would be reasonable to assume that the remainder of the thousand-plus expeditionary fleets were led, on the theatre level, by lords commander of the army or navy, even if they (as commonly depicted in the novels) deferred tactical command to ranking members of the Astartes.
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 Red Hunters: 2000 points  Grey Knights: 2000 points  Black Legion: 600 points and counting |
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2012/07/31 13:05:57
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy
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Primarchs outranked everyone except the Warmaster and the Emperor.
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2012/07/31 14:08:12
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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[MOD]
Solahma
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During the Great Crusade, it seems the Primarchs outranked everyone except their own primus inter pares, the Warmaster, and of course the Emperor himself. When Guilliman assumed control of the Imperium, it was under the title Lord Commander. Guilliman's reorganization of the Imperium, especially regarding Codex Astartes, seemed to place "mortal" leaders on equal footing with Primarchs, no doubt using the example of the Sigilite as a prototypical High Lord. It wasn't just an elevation of mortals, however, but a "demotion" of Primarchs via the Second Founding.
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2012/07/31 14:15:21
Subject: Re:Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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I'm pretty sure Lord Commanders commanded the Expeditionary Fleets unless a Primarch was present. The Great Crusade-era Imperium was governed by Super-Humans (the Primarchs) and Trans-Humans (Malcador, the Emperor, the Fabricator-General) as opposed to normal Humans, who only came to truly govern the Imperium after the Horus Heresy. I mean, for all their supposed governance of the Imperium, the Council of Terra seemed largely dependent on Malcador's power and personal influence to do anything outside of Terra itself.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/31 14:27:17
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Manhunter
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Thats kinda the point of a Feudal Empire. The King/Empire is really quite powerless unless nobles back him, since the nation is so decentralized.
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Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!
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2012/07/31 14:29:41
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Thats kinda the point of a Feudal Empire. The King/Empire is really quite powerless unless nobles back him, since the nation is so decentralized.
Which part? The Council of Terra being powerless without Malcador, or Super-Humans and Trans-Humans (see above) ruling the Imperium?
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/31 14:36:02
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Manhunter
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The Council of Terra being powerless period. If they issue an eddict and no one wants to enforce it then its ignored.
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Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!
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2012/07/31 14:40:04
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The Council of Terra being powerless period. If they issue an eddict and no one wants to enforce it then its ignored.
Which begs the question - why was the Council of Terra even formed in the first place? Both the Emperor and Malcador would have known if the council was going to end up being a rubber stamp without either of them (or a Primarch), so why bother with the council at all? I mean, Malcador managed to run the Imperial Administration by himself well enough without the council.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/31 14:42:04
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Running the Imperium is a big task. There's more to do than the Emperor and Malcador can personally handle. The Council of Terra handles this. I think you're both vastly underestimating the power of the Council.
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2012/07/31 14:49:43
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:Running the Imperium is a big task. There's more to do than the Emperor and Malcador can personally handle. The Council of Terra handles this. I think you're both vastly underestimating the power of the Council.
We're not. But the council really seems powerless without Malcador keeping things running smoothly. BTW, was the Warmaster part of the council, under it, or equal? Certainly not above, seeing as Malcador (effectively the Emperor's right-hand man) was head of the council.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/31 15:16:42
Subject: Lord Commanders and Primarchs
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Why would the Warmaster have anything to do with the business of the Council of Terra? There isn't only one, single-file chain of command.
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289th Descaal Janissaries: around 2kpts
Imperial Fists 4th company (Work In Progress)
Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)