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The SPARTAN-II Project and all its successors - is is possible IRL?

Its not out of bounds that universal health care systems could be used to identify suitable individuals for SPARTAN-II and SPARTAN-III analogs, though instead of flash clones, an alternative excuse for the disappeared children would have to be found. But then, the question would be: would the bio-engineering techniques used to create the SPARTAN-IIs and refined for the SPARTAN-IIIs and SPARTAN-IVs be possible? And what of Mjolnir - is it also possible IRL (apart from the SPARTAN Laser, every other SPARTAN weapons are obviously feasible, apart from 'recovered' Covenant plasma weaponry)?

Currently no, they are not viable with current technology.

Given the fuss around stem cell research I'd say they'd be set back as well.

 n0t_u wrote:
Currently no, they are not viable with current technology.

Given the fuss around stem cell research I'd say they'd be set back as well.

Seeing as the true nature of the SPARTAN Project is top secret...ethics would be a moot point seeing as the public would never how SPARTAN-IIs and SPARTAN-IIIs were recruited.

Well when the two don't seem so entwined perhaps so. They seem to try to pull away, yet get dragged back as quickly.

I guess it could depend on how combat goes, by the time they are possible they may no longer be viable.

I very much doubth these things would be viabel in the real world, all it takes is one guy with a RPG or a IED to reduce your fancy new soldier to minced meat

 Trondheim wrote:
I very much doubth these things would be viabel in the real world, all it takes is one guy with a RPG or a IED to reduce your fancy new soldier to minced meat

Seeing these guys are Special-Ops who weren't meant to serve on the front-lines, I imagine they wouldn't be storming fortresses or something along those lines...and they have superhuman reflexes - it wouldn't be surprising to see them shoot down an RPG round or the equivalent in mid-air.

They probably couldn't shoot one down...
Dodge one maybe...

At any rate the point is moot. Spartans aren't possible at our current rate of technology...
We don't have the expertise in any field required to make spartans possibly the armour but it'd be vastly more expensive than even the in-universe armour which runs into the millions. It'd even be worse than theirs anyway so go figure...

 purplefood wrote:
They probably couldn't shoot one down...
Dodge one maybe...

At any rate the point is moot. Spartans aren't possible at our current rate of technology...
We don't have the expertise in any field required to make spartans possibly the armour but it'd be vastly more expensive than even the in-universe armour which runs into the millions. It'd even be worse than theirs anyway so go figure...

In a decade or so, perhaps?

EDIT: To clarify, I'm asking whether or not we could create SPARTANs now or in a few decades outside of the Halo universe, using real-life technologies and scientific concepts.

A few decades at the least after everyone becomes open to all of the technology required. We'll probably see cybernetic prosthetics and armour well before the genetic manipulation required.

As in decent ones considering we're more or less breaking into that field at the moment.

 n0t_u wrote:
A few decades at the least after everyone becomes open to all of the technology required. We'll probably see cybernetic prosthetics and armour well before the genetic manipulation required.

Genetic enhancements?

I'm pretty sure no genetic engineering was involved, just increasing bone and muscle density, inducing growth hormones with a thyroid implant, and alterations to the eyes and brain - surgically for the SPARTAN-IIs, and chemically for the SPARTAN-IIIs and SPARTAN-IVs (well, they dropped the thyroid implant). Oh, and implanting high-grade processors to the rear of the brain for an AI interface.

And who needs to be open to the idea - the true form of the SPARTAN Project is shrouded in secrecy, and the public has absolutely no right or need to know.

The Spartan II's had some low level genetic enhancements...

 purplefood wrote:
The Spartan II's had some low level genetic enhancements...

...

I've never heard about that...care to clarify? Or at least give me something to look up?

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
The Spartan II's had some low level genetic enhancements...

...

I've never heard about that...care to clarify? Or at least give me something to look up?

Hell if i know...
I remember reading it in one of the books but i'll be buggered if i remember which one.
It wasn't anything huge, a tweak here and there...

 Tadashi wrote:
I'm pretty sure no genetic engineering was involved, just increasing bone and muscle density, inducing growth hormones with a thyroid implant, and alterations to the eyes and brain - surgically for the SPARTAN-IIs, and chemically for the SPARTAN-IIIs and SPARTAN-IVs. Oh, and implanting high-grade processors to the rear of the brain for an AI interface.

And who needs to be open to the idea - the true form of the SPARTAN Project is shrouded in secrecy, and the public has absolutely no right or need to know.

That is genetic modification. As for who needs to be open for it; the ones in charge. If they're bound strongly by their religious beliefs it could influence them against the idea completely as it could appear as playing god. As things are we're more likely to see a strength enhancing armour. The more important thing to remember is cost; they need to be cheap enough to have en masse without compromising too much.

If there was a way to keep it cheap and if done without worrying about ethics it could probably happen at one point. But, even then it'd maybe be a couple of decades off.

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
The Spartan II's had some low level genetic enhancements...

...

I've never heard about that...care to clarify? Or at least give me something to look up?

Hell if i know...
I remember reading it in one of the books but i'll be buggered if i remember which one.
It wasn't anything huge, a tweak here and there...

Maybe just like our gene therapy, to remove/neutralize hereditary diseases from popping out...after all, the SPARTAN-IIIs were supposed to have 'perfect genes'.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
I'm pretty sure no genetic engineering was involved, just increasing bone and muscle density, inducing growth hormones with a thyroid implant, and alterations to the eyes and brain - surgically for the SPARTAN-IIs, and chemically for the SPARTAN-IIIs and SPARTAN-IVs. Oh, and implanting high-grade processors to the rear of the brain for an AI interface.

And who needs to be open to the idea - the true form of the SPARTAN Project is shrouded in secrecy, and the public has absolutely no right or need to know.

That is genetic modification.

Actually no...its more of biological modification, as no genes were actually altered/introduced in the process. In fact, the primary difference between SPARTAN-IIs and SPARTAN-IIIs was that SPARTAN-IIs were altered surgically, while the SPARTAN-IIIs (and the SPARTAN-IVs) were altered chemically.

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
The Spartan II's had some low level genetic enhancements...

...

I've never heard about that...care to clarify? Or at least give me something to look up?

Hell if i know...
I remember reading it in one of the books but i'll be buggered if i remember which one.
It wasn't anything huge, a tweak here and there...

Maybe just like our gene therapy, to remove/neutralize hereditary diseases from popping out...after all, the SPARTAN-IIIs were supposed to have 'perfect genes'.

They already had perfect genes. I think the therapy was largely to help them accept the new organs with one or two bits and bobs to assist them in other areas...

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
The Spartan II's had some low level genetic enhancements...

...

I've never heard about that...care to clarify? Or at least give me something to look up?

Hell if i know...
I remember reading it in one of the books but i'll be buggered if i remember which one.
It wasn't anything huge, a tweak here and there...

Maybe just like our gene therapy, to remove/neutralize hereditary diseases from popping out...after all, the SPARTAN-IIIs were supposed to have 'perfect genes'.

They already had perfect genes. I think the therapy was largely to help them accept the new organs with one or two bits and bobs to assist them in other areas...

I though it was the SPARTAN-IIs who had the genetic modifications, while the SPARTAN-IIIs were the ones with the 'perfect' genes? As for the SPARTAN-IVs, maybe the process had been further refined for the chemical inducers to function in a similar manner without the need for 'perfect' genes.

Weren't the Spartan IIIs suicide troops with squads of 150 and much lower grade armour?

I don't see this as plausable for a few decades atleast, and even when it is, surely it would be much cheaper and more efficent to not have them. If they're only doing spec ops then highly trained soldiers could do the same job and not set the military back millions of pounds if they're killed.

Lord-Loss wrote:


I don't see this as plausable for a few decades atleast, and even when it is, surely it would be much cheaper and more efficent to not have them. If they're only doing spec ops then highly trained soldiers could do the same job and not set the military back millions of pounds if they're killed.

There are enemies/missions even the best Human troops/Special-Ops can't defeat/do.

Of course not, that's like asking if stormtroopers or space marines would work in the real world.

Going away from the genetics of the Spartans to the Mjolnir armour; "armour" is the wrong word to be using. I read in Halsey's journal from the Reach special edition (HIGHLY recommend getting hold of that if you haven't already. The journal is a VERY interesting read ) The suit is not designed for protection, at least the early models before the energy shields were reverse-engineered from the Covenant tech. The suit was made to increase the movement speed of the wearer. The Spartans needed to have far higher reflexes than a normal human to be able to actually control it, all tests with human operators caused dislocations and bone breakages because the suit amplified the movements too much for the operators to control. Even the Spartans needed extensive training to actually wear the suit. The suit also needed to be self powering, as no power source they had at the time could be miniaturised enough to work for long enough. This is also the main issue faced by us today for making any kind of independent exoskeleton. The way they sorted this was by using piezoelectric materials far more advanced than anything we currently have. The journal goes into detail about it but I don't have access to it at the moment so I'm working from memory. Basically, the movements of the Spartan inside the suit change the shape of the piezoelectric layer within the suit, this creates an electrical charge. This is stored in some kind of capacitor/battery pack. The suit is fairly heavy (I think a fully suited Spartan weighs ~1 ton - Does someone have any reference to confirm this?) They could possibly move the suit without assistance, but no way could they fight in it. so the piezoelectric materials also work in the opposite way as well. The power from the battery causes the materials to change shape, responding to the Spartan's movements inside the suit. This is what causes the movements to be amplified so much.

I found this a really interesting concept, and it's one I'd like to explore further, but in the journal it said that the material they used was far more reactive than any kind of piezoelectric material we currently have. Whilst quartz (for example) will only distort fractionally when a current passes through it, and only produces a tiny charge when deformed, the material used in the suits changed far more, on the order of several mm. This might not seem like a lot, but its a hell of a lot more than anything we have today.

TL;DR - Mjolnir is far more advanced than anything we could do at the moment, but at the same time possibly feasible providing the materials with the right properties can be created/discovered.

Tibbsy wrote:
Going away from the genetics of the Spartans to the Mjolnir armour; "armour" is the wrong word to be using. I read in Halsey's journal from the Reach special edition (HIGHLY recommend getting hold of that if you haven't already. The journal is a VERY interesting read ) The suit is not designed for protection, at least the early models before the energy shields were reverse-engineered from the Covenant tech. The suit was made to increase the movement speed of the wearer. The Spartans needed to have far higher reflexes than a normal human to be able to actually control it, all tests with human operators caused dislocations and bone breakages because the suit amplified the movements too much for the operators to control. Even the Spartans needed extensive training to actually wear the suit. The suit also needed to be self powering, as no power source they had at the time could be miniaturised enough to work for long enough. This is also the main issue faced by us today for making any kind of independent exoskeleton. The way they sorted this was by using piezoelectric materials far more advanced than anything we currently have. The journal goes into detail about it but I don't have access to it at the moment so I'm working from memory. Basically, the movements of the Spartan inside the suit change the shape of the piezoelectric layer within the suit, this creates an electrical charge. This is stored in some kind of capacitor/battery pack. The suit is fairly heavy (I think a fully suited Spartan weighs ~1 ton - Does someone have any reference to confirm this?) They could possibly move the suit without assistance, but no way could they fight in it. so the piezoelectric materials also work in the opposite way as well. The power from the battery causes the materials to change shape, responding to the Spartan's movements inside the suit. This is what causes the movements to be amplified so much.

I found this a really interesting concept, and it's one I'd like to explore further, but in the journal it said that the material they used was far more reactive than any kind of piezoelectric material we currently have. Whilst quartz (for example) will only distort fractionally when a current passes through it, and only produces a tiny charge when deformed, the material used in the suits changed far more, on the order of several mm. This might not seem like a lot, but its a hell of a lot more than anything we have today.

TL;DR - Mjolnir is far more advanced than anything we could do at the moment, but at the same time possibly feasible providing the materials with the right properties can be created/discovered.

Spartan II Mjolnir armor has a Reactor in the backpack, they even blow one up in one of the books (first strike I think?). So I'm guessing that part you were referencing is for the Spartan III armor.

Also, Spartain III's except for noble team, didn't even get Mjolnir armor, they used modified infiltration gear without a proper shield but with cloaking capabilities.

See, this is why I thought reach was the weakest of all the games story wise, retconned so much stuff that was better then what it brings to the table.

As for the OP, no. All of the implants and the technology (apart from the standard fire arms) are miles ahead of us. We're talking metal bone grafting, complete overhaul on the nerve system, increased muscle power-weight ratio etc. etc. etc.

I cant say, Halo takes place 500 years from now. Who knows what the world and technology will be like by than.

Spartan III's were the budget super soldiers.
They took whoever they could find (Mostly orphans under the age of 10) and turned them in III's.
The II's were the real expensive super soliders and the IV's are the best of both worlds (And without the ethical hiccups)

 Soladrin wrote:


Spartan II Mjolnir armor has a Reactor in the backpack, they even blow one up in one of the books (first strike I think?). So I'm guessing that part you were referencing is for the Spartan III armor.

I'm pretty certain I was on about Mjolnir and Spartan IIs. Halsey had nothing to do with the Spartan III project and wasn't even aware they existed until Noble team showed up but she covered the Spartan II project extensively in the journal. I knew I was likely wrong about the power source, thanks for the correction there. But I'm certain about the piezoelectric layer within the armour. I remember that because I read it in the journal, stopped, and then read it again because I found it such a cool concept

Oh I know about the layer. Other thing's it does is link with AI's to increase overall performance.

Also, Mjolnir MK ..what is 4 in Halo 1? Weighs 500 kilograms IIRC.

Some of the concepts (gene-therapy, neuro-chemistry, and power armor) will eventually be viable. Not for a long time though. The cost would be far to absurd, the techniques too sloppy for practical use.

In the end though while theoretically feasible as an idea, the practical usefulness of super soldiers is probably 0 in real life. Cost benefit analysis doesn't really favor them at all. Even in the Halo universe, most of the UNSC who knew were against the project because it cost too damned much.

I'm pretty certain I was on about Mjolnir and Spartan IIs. Halsey had nothing to do with the Spartan III project and wasn't even aware they existed until Noble team showed up but she covered the Spartan II project extensively in the journal. I knew I was likely wrong about the power source, thanks for the correction there. But I'm certain about the piezoelectric layer within the armour. I remember that because I read it in the journal, stopped, and then read it again because I found it such a cool concept

That's one of the things I hate about Reach (story wise). Halsey didn't even suspect there was a Spartan III program until First Strike, but oh well. It's not like Fall of Reach wasn't invalidated anyway by the game's timeline.

 LordofHats wrote:
Some of the concepts (gene-therapy, neuro-chemistry, and power armor) will eventually be viable. Not for a long time though. The cost would be far to absurd, the techniques too sloppy for practical use.

In the end though while theoretically feasible as an idea, the practical usefulness of super soldiers is probably 0 in real life. Cost benefit analysis doesn't really favor them at all. Even in the Halo universe, most of the UNSC who knew were against the project because it cost too damned much.

Cost be damned...if it ensures victory or grants a tactical advantage when used properly, do it.

Except its hard to justify (for sake of argument) 10 guys who cost $5,000,000 each, when you can have 500 for $10,000 each or even 50 for $100,000 each. Making something ludicrously expensive doesn't make it actually useful. Just because something offers an advantage doesn't mean it outweighs it cost relative to other options. Take the Tiger II from WWII. A fantastic tank in technical terms, but between cost of production, fuel supply, and difficult repairs and maintainance, the tactical superiority of the Tiger II was pretty much worthless. Germany would have been better off to just keep making Tiger Is (ignoring that the exact same argument can be leveled against the Tiger I).

Think about it in 40k terms. You have a limited resource of 1500 points (dollars) for the war, why would you spend 700 of that on a fully decked out Vanguard Vet Squad?

The value of super soldiers in war is only really cool in fiction where impossibilities can be possible and the writers generally have no knowledge (or just don't care) about realism. Kind of like space ship battles and giant robots. Rule of Cool

 LordofHats wrote:
Except its hard to justify (for sake of argument) 10 guys who cost $5,000,000 each, when you can have 500 for $10,000 each or even 50 for $100,000 each. Making something ludicrously expensive doesn't make it actually useful. Just because something offers an advantage doesn't mean it outweighs it cost relative to other options. Take the Tiger II from WWII. A fantastic tank in technical terms, but between cost of production, fuel supply, and difficult repairs and maintainance, the tactical superiority of the Tiger II was pretty much worthless. Germany would have been better off to just keep making Tiger Is (ignoring that the exact same argument can be leveled against the Tiger I).

Uh-huh...guess that makes ballistic submarines useless, seeing as their primary purpose is to serve as deterrents and are otherwise worthless. Sorry, but I believe that quality beats quantity any time, no matter the cost.

Kind of like space ship battles and giant robots.

Space ship battles are not necessarily 'Rule of Cool' - back when battleships ruled the day, everyone thought that carriers were also 'Rule of Cool'; look at how that turned out. As for giant robots, very true, until someone finds a real-life equivalent to the Minovsky Particle.