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Well, here comes another tournament, next Saturday. The last one I went to was a 1250 pt GW RTT, so it'll be nice to be back in a points range the Deathwing can be competitive at.

Here's what I've been using lately and what I'll be bringing to the tournament. I'd use my drop pod army list, but I don't have any built yet.

Epistolary Librarian: FW/SB, Fear + Fury, Mastercrafted Weapon, Teleport Homer (main use is to scare away entrenched firebases and force weapon Dread Axe Princes)

Command Squad: 4 Terminators: 2 assault cannons

2 x Deathwing squads: 6 Terminators each: Sgts w/ Homers, 2 assault cannons each

3 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators each: Sgts w/ Homers, 2 assault cannons each

1849 pts: 1 Librarian + 31 Terminators: 12 assault cannons, 25 power fists.

As you can see, everything deep strikes, though I don't have to if I'm up against an assault army and I don't lose too much, points-wise, by choosing not to deep strike.

Any thoughts, comments, wishes of good luck, etc? I figure it's the best army list I could come up with, since I run all-Terminator armies and my Dreads with heavy flamers and assault cannons are really only useful in drop pods. Usually they get destroyed at range by heavy weapons before they can intercept the nasties they're included for, like Bloodletters.

Thanks.

Hey, THX.

List looks about as good as it can. Not like Deathwing is a real deep list. One minor change I would make would be to replace the storm bolter on the librarian with a storm shield. The main reason why is that you'll never use it, since you have both Fury and Fear. I can't think of a single instance where I'd prefer a storm bolter over Fury. You don't actually have the points for the storm shield, but, if it were me, I'd remove the master crafting on the force weapon. That re-roll might seem nice, but if you're up against a demon prince in hand to hand what you'll really be wanting is a better invul save, not a force weapon re-roll. Remember that your librarian is still being escorted by 4 powerfist wielding termies. Powerfists hurt plenty.

As for the extra points from that exchange, you could do a couple of things. One good option would be to buy a chainfist or two. Always good for insurance. Personal preference of mine is to equip my Sgts. with combi-flamers. I find template weapons to be invaluable, and the low cost of the combi-flamer makes it a no brainer for a squad sgt.

Finally, if you don't mind a radical change, you might actually want to go with a second fury/fear librarian and command squad. It would mean reworking the list in a big way and it won't make you any friends, but it's certainly a viable option.

Hope it helps. Good hunting.

Ezz

Looks okay to me. The only thing I'm not hot on is the MC on the weapon (I'm assuming this is for the FW? ). Probably not a bad thing to have, but not my first kit priority. 'Course, I don't know what else I'd use that for (Veil of Time instead of Fear?)

Ezzeran, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. Did you use to post on the B&C?

I agree with you on the storm shield, but my problem there is no bit for it. I'll have to see about making a new Libby with a shield sometime. Otherwise, I agree, it'd probably be a better investment than Mastercrafting. However, in this case, my Libby is designed to fight a Dread Axe Prince and so a better Inv save won't help me at all, as it's ignored by the Dread Axe. What I'd really like to do is get Mastercrafting AND a power weapon on the Libby, to get the extra attack + the hit re-roll, but I don't have the points.

Combi-flamers I've seen used to good effect, I like that suggestion and will look into it.

Do you think a second Libby would work? I'm just worried about the points investment. I've no qualms including a second one, but having two expensive squads out there that are pretty vulnerable to AP 2 fire in an already expensive army doesn't seem too good to me. I could easily include one though, by changing a 6-man squad over to one.

I'll rework the list to include a 2nd Epistolary and post it up here later today.

Thanks again.

Syr, thanks for the feedback. I did have VoT for a little while, until I realized that if I used VoT, I couldn't use the FW's abilities, since both are technically 'major' psychic powers and I didn't want to argue rules with my opponent.

All right, here's the dual Epistolary version. Note I didn't have the points to really give both storm bolters.

2 x Epistolary Librarians: FW, Fear + Fury, Teleport Homers

2 x Command squads: 4 Terminators: 2 assault cannons

4 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators each: Sgts w/ Teleport Homers, 2 assault cannons

I'm not sure how this will really work though... The 6-man squads in the above army list give me two 'line' squads, while the 5-man squads can support them, along with the Command squad. I think dual Librarians will only really work well in shooty Marine army lists, like Ed's. But I'll see about playtesting it.

Yep, I sure did used to post on B&C. Shame about what happened over there. A lot of Dark Angels and more specifically Deathwing stuff was lost. It's really gut wrenching to think of all the hours that people put in to contribute there. Here's hoping some of it was saved and can be restored.

Ah yes, I forgot about that ability of the dread axe. In your specifc case then it might not be a good option against that list, though in general I'd recommend it above most other options. The extra attack with the power weapon is worthwhile too. the important thing is just to not waste points on SB's that will never be used.

There's actually another good use for the points you get back from mastercrafting, though, and that's to give the command squads furious charge. Ups the initiative on your librarian as well as his chance to wound with his force weapon, and it turns your Sgt. into a character in his own right. It hardly matters that the pfist terminators don't benefit. The points are well worth it just for the librarian and sgt alone.

As to the 2nd Epistolary list, well, yeah, the second one sucks up a lot of points. And if you're primarily fighting chaos, I'm not sure how well you can expect fear to work. Still, I do usually run a second HQ and I typically make it a grandmaster with the sword of secrets.

It's up to you. If you're more comfortable with your first list, stick with it. Again, there's only so many options you can really consider, and at that point it's primarily a matter of personal preference.

Ezz

Probably wouldn't work, but what about something weird like this?

2 x Epistolary Librarians: FW/PW, Fear + Fury, Teleport Homers

3 x Deathwing squads: 6 Terminators each: Sgts w/ Teleport Homers, 2 assault cannons

2 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators each: Sgts w/ Teleport Homers, 2 assault cannons

Only 10 assault cannons, but two Fear/Fury Librarians with 6 attacks on the charge each. Should be relatively equal in comp. Just wondering how DSing will fare...

Edit: Oh, and I'm not just up against Chaos mainly, but the Dread Axe Prince is one of the major things I fear in close-combat, due to his ability to ignore both saving throws.

Personally I don't have any problem with that list. Maxing out on assault cannons is nice, sure, but 6 man Deathwing squads are solid. You've got 3 solid objective takers and the other 4 squads can just dish out punishment.

Looks good to me.

You mean the other two squads... It'd be nice to have four though.

Edit: I'll playtest the dual Librarian list with the 6-man squads today if possible and most likely tomorrow, see how it all works out.

*scratches head* Why was I seeing illusionary command squads in there?

Yes, the other 2 squads. Which I would actually make command squads, actually. You want your librarian as part of a squad at all times if possible. You don't want him coming onto the table via deep strike or reserves without an escort. And while 5 man squads aren't as efficient as 4 man ones, they'll still work fine.

Mind you, dropping a terminator from each of those squads will give you a TON of points for wargear and skills. Personally that's the direction I'd go, but I tend to go for fewer models with more tricks than pure bodycount. If I dropped those two terminators and made them into command squads, those squads would have furious charge while the three troop squads would have tank hunters. Yes, tank hunting assault cannons/storm bolters rock. Trust me, having played Tau for as long as I have, you'll appreciate S5 weapons against AV10-11 targets.

Ezz

Well, I think I've decided that the following will be the army list I take to the tournament:

1 x Epistolary Librarian: FW, Fear + Fury, Auspex, Teleport Homer (barebones, almost throwaway unit: he's there to try and force weapon Dread Axe Princes if need be, as I said before, and scare away entrenched firebases)

4 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators each: 2 assault cannons, Tank Hunters, Teleport Homers

2 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators each: 2 assault cannons, Auspexes, Teleport Homers

The Tank Hunting squads are for anti-Falcon roles, since I know at least two of my potential opponents will have 2-3 Falcons each and besides the Monolith (which I never bother to try and hurt anyways), that skimmer tank is the next toughest model to take down at range for my army. Hurting it on a 5+ instead of a 6+ all the time will help a great deal, I'm thinking.

31 Terminators: 6 scoring units, 12 assault cannons, 20+ power fists

The other configuration I could perhaps do is make a 4-man Command squad and keep my two 6-man squads from above. However, I don't like that as much as I get one less Tank Hunting squad and a really expensive Command squad that my opponent can blow away for extra points. Even though the above army is cookie cutter, I believe it's pretty solid for a tournament army.

The auspexes are there in case I wish to actually deploy on the table against armies like Tyranids and Orks. With 3 of them in the army list, I can hopefully put some surprise pain into infiltrating units that setup in LOS.

Anyways, the tournament is this Saturday. Any thoughts or comments? I'll playtest this army hopefully at least twice before the actual tournament.

Sorry I'm replying so late to this.

I honestly don't think you need 4 tank hunting termie squads. Three should be enough. And I would almost certainly give the librarian a 4 man command squad and furious charge. Don't ever treat your librarian as a throw away unit, especially since both chaos and eldar have access to psychic powers. You're spending close to 170 points on a single model and you're viewing him as a throw away? *tsks*

Not only that but if you did decide to deep strike, your librarian wouldn't be able to as he isn't part of a squad. You're also essentially paying 47 points extra for an assault cannon squad, too. All you get for those points are an extra storm bolter and powerfist. The 5th terminator gives you no advantage when it comes to scoring.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

Ezz

You make a good point about the Librarian being unable to DS, Ezz; I'd forgotten about that little issue during Alpha missions. But besides that, 170 pts is a throw away unit in a Deathwing army. And that 5th Terminator provides an extra wound before losing an assault cannon...

Alrighty, well, here's the final version of the army list. If I lose, it's your fault, heh.

1 x Epistolary Librarian: FW/PW, Fear + Fury, Homer, Furious Charge

1 x Command squad: 4 Terminators: 2 assault cannons, Auspex, Furious Charge

5 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators each: 2 assault cannons, Homers, Auspexes, Tank Hunters

30 Terminators: 12 tank-hunting assault cannons, 23 power fists.

Better, though I'm with Ez that you don't need that much Tank Hunting. Maybe on two of the squads, but not all. You could use a lot of those points to bump some of those squads to 6 men each, and I've found that 6th man to be critical when the armor saves start failing...

Dropping three of those Tank Hunter abilities barely nets me enough points for one more Terminator. I think I'll keep the army list as-is and see what happens.

Ezz and Syr, what do you two think of the following army list? I'm thinking of taking this now:

1 x Epistolary: FW/PW, Fear + Fury, Homer

1 x Command squad: 4 Terminators: 2 assault cannons

3 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators: 2 assault cannons, Homers, Auspexes, Tank Hunters

2 x Deathwing squads: 5 Terminators: 2 CMLs, Homers, Auspexes, Tank Hunters

1849 pts: 30 Terminators: 8 tank-hunting assault cannons, 4 tank-hunting CMLs, 20+ power fists.

Not dissimilar from what I run. I think the range will be a great asset to you, and tank-hunting CMLs are great! I'd love to hear how the 12 ACs vs. 8 AC/4 CMLs work out...

Honestly, I can't bear to bring CML's with my Deathwing anymore.

I've either replaced them with Dreads or I'm deep striking. Plus, 24" of range plus 6" of movement is usually more than enough.

If you feel the need to have 48" range firepower, then bring two TLLC/ML dreads instead.

Ezz

Well, here's the battle report for those interested:

http://p098.ezboard.com/fgatheringofangels78408frm2.showMessage?topicID=10.topic

well done. Why did you decide against bringing assault cannons only? Did you regret swapping them for cyclones or would ytou recommend using cyclone squads now?

Well done and a nice list. I had a similar result last night.
I played my DW using a list very close to yours. Its my veteran's night campaign list and I drew Tau. Now I personally do not like furious charge on my Libby ( I rarely assault anything with my DW and almost ever deepstrike. I fielded

Libbie, FotD, FotA w/ 2 ac command squad of four
Cml squad of five
3 x 5 men squads of ACs w/auspex and tank hunter
I played against
shasel
2x 3 crisis
2 x FW
3 x Kroot
3x Broadside
It was omega seek and destroy
For three full turns m libie sat in a corbner pinning down on average 2 units a turn while mu Cml squad slowly reduced units and squads. My AC squads walked up one flank ripping up squad by squad. By turn four I had yet to lose single terminator. By the end of turn five I got a concession as the Libbie was just devastating his troops. He really never deployed with the Libbie in mind and it felt a bit cheap just pinning and slowly reducing his squads. I also rolled a lot of hits on my FotD. He should have probably Dsed his crisis ( although they came in piecemeal and were sitting ducks for my termies. He couldn't get any plasma hits all game.
After the game he lamented the fact he had no Hammerheads in his list but he plays a themed Krootau force relying on broadsides as kroot cannoy fly HHs ( every model has a kroot head - fw, suits, etc. ) His army looked great on the table - sixty some odd troops well painted and themed - but a bad matchup against DW.
CMLs are so useful at times. One squad is the minimum i would take. ACs just lack range. If you are not fielding Dread with TLLCs you need a squad of CMLs.

Felixcat: Good to hear of your success. I'm always glad to read bat reps of the Deathwing army winning games, since, competitively-speaking, they're one of the weakest army lists out there and almost as one-dimensional as Necrons. But damn their fluff is good.

Ezz: I know you don't like CML squads anymore, but if you don't have any TL-lascannon/ML Dreads, CMLs are the only weapons left available. Plus, they're are definitely times you don't want to deep strike. All 3 games from the tournament probably would have gone much more badly if I had chosen to DS.

Wimmins: To be honest, I can't say if I like CML squads or not, not just yet. I don't have enough experience using them yet, but I will say I like the squad's durability over long-range Dreads. What I did learn though is that they can advance with the assault cannon squads, while tossing krak rockets (never say MISS-ile) downrange and then target distant tanks if the need warrants. They can also pump out 10-12 storm bolter shots a turn, which is pretty good, averaging about 3-4 wounds on an MEq squad. They can also fight just as well as assault cannon squads in close-combat, with more attacks than the long-range Dread and with the ability to negate armor saves, unlike the pure long-range Dread platform. I found they were good support units, with good strengths for the army, and they didn't let me down (despite having more of a anti-infantry role due to lack of armor in my opponents) but I'm still not completely sold on them. More playtesting is in order.

If those CML two squads didn't allow me to take at least those 8 assault cannons, I probably would have gone all-assault cannon. Right now, I believe a mix of the two weapons can be viable and that you're not losing that much by bringing the CMLs along.

Oh good. Someone else thinking outside the Mauleed Box.

I too am an advocate of having a few CMLs in my deathwing. Yeah, the Ass Cannons are good... but every once in a while, I really like that 48"-54" range the CMLs provide.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying go all assault cannons in your army.

I'm simply saying go all assault cannons on your terminators. Save the 48" range weapons for the walkers.

Dreads have a definite place in a deathwing list. Anti-tank weapons threaten your terminators just as much as your dreads. Nine times out of ten I'd rather have them shoot my dread than my terminators. Especially if that dread is venerable.

And that's not even talking about how well dreads and terminators move up the field together.

In a straight foot-slogging list I'd probably use a unit of CML's too. I just don't think I'd ever play a straight foot slogging list anymore.

Ezz

I have to two forgeworld dreads and drop pods. They look great. I use them only in larger games now.  I  like the footslogging lists at 1500  - 1750  which  is most  common  in Canada.  That said,  it is as you say, a preference.  Last time I used dreads my first knocked out a broadside and then got fried by crisis suits - never got to the firewarriors. The second dread  was  never needed  by turn four when it arrived. Footsloggers would have been better. However, I've played games where the dreads were the difference as well.
DW is not as rigid as it looks at times. Libby, grand master or chappie, take an assault squad or an LRC, use my Mortis or Prometheus. Put combi-flamers on my squad leaders. All can be viable options.
I'm just happy that I've had a fair anmount of success with my DW. I've developed my own style. I haven't DSed more than one squad in over a year so CMLs become a good investment.