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alright, after cycling through the 275th "Which primarch is the best" thread, I saw a little bit of hatred on the imperial fist primarch. Since I haven't seen anything about dorn in recent times I decided to ask you guys about him. Thoughts, opinions, is he a good character or has the personality of a brick, ect.

This whole thing is a spoiler, but i'm on my phone. So i cant tag it as such.

I think hes okay at best. Upon reading the end of the 4th hh book i formulated an opinion on him: hes stoutly loyal to his brothers and father. Only problem is too loyal. If he had been around horus more often i think the fists woulda fallen to chaos. He was way too hard on garro, he beat the hell out of him but at the same time he knew he might be telling the truth so he didnt kill him. Which tells me hes stubborn as all hell but intelligent.

From the WD perspective - very cool guy, but I'cant understand his anti codex - best codex chapter in the world perspective....

btw I m glad you started this thread, because I was thinking to start it also...

I believe he's also stubborn, a arrogant streak cloaked in humilty. He is confident of his actions but also not likely to take rash actions.

Dorn would do anything to see a task complete and would be resolute until it was acomplished.

He was quite simply the 'best man for the job' to organise th loyalsit responses to the Heresy, steady measured thoughtful action not prone to rash action or hubris. Plus his skill in Siege warfare saved the Imperium as we know it. Could any other primarch marshalled the defenders as thoroughly?

The Index Astartes made him out to be a lot less of an arrogant blindly loyal dick then the HH series. But that makes sense, as the Index Astartes in many ways were intentionally pseudo-legendary.

He has a necessary role in any regard. big-E needed an administrator and competent right hand besides Guilliman.

This thread needs Manchu



Dorn is the one to rely on, dutyful and usually Perturabo is his only personal nemesis..
He also has a problem his brethren didn't have: he has to deal with the loss of his father and is shown to us in detail where the rest just gets to escape our view.
The Emperor above all else and stubborn, so we have his sons in different flavors, some representing his trait to follow orders ( codex ) and some to represent his rage at the treachery and the old ways still having a duty unfullfilled ( BT ).
Sure he would never join sedition against his Emperor. But he's also more of a soldier than politician and has a hard time opposing the scheming of Horus & friends.

Brother Thomas wrote:
This whole thing is a spoiler, but i'm on my phone. So i cant tag it as such.

I think hes okay at best. Upon reading the end of the 4th hh book i formulated an opinion on him: hes stoutly loyal to his brothers and father. Only problem is too loyal. If he had been around horus more often i think the fists woulda fallen to chaos. He was way too hard on garro, he beat the hell out of him but at the same time he knew he might be telling the truth so he didnt kill him. Which tells me hes stubborn as all hell but intelligent.

I agree.
The only place that I personally have read about him in the fluff is in the Flight of the Eisenstein and he certainly doesn't come across as a very likeable character in the short appearance he made there.

 1hadhq wrote:



This thread needs Manchu



Dorn is the one to rely on, dutyful and usually Perturabo is his only personal nemesis..
He also has a problem his brethren didn't have: he has to deal with the loss of his father and is shown to us in detail where the rest just gets to escape our view.
The Emperor above all else and stubborn, so we have his sons in different flavors, some representing his trait to follow orders ( codex ) and some to represent his rage at the treachery and the old ways still having a duty unfullfilled ( BT ).
Sure he would never join sedition against his Emperor. But he's also more of a soldier than politician and has a hard time opposing the scheming of Horus & friends.

I agree with this, Dorn was the loyal son, loyal to a fault even.

I like him, the Iron Cage was a bit of retardation, but he was a loyal primarch (hell Guilleman let Fulgrim cut his throat) who knew when to fight and when to stand down.

I may be biased, since Rogal Dorn is my most favourite Primarch of the bunch, and is the primogenitor of the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and the Crimson Fists, all Chapters who I like a great deal.

Although there hasnt been much shown in the way of his personality and personal interactions with his legion, we know he is loyal, some would say loyal to a fault. He is also stubborn (stubborn enough that the stubbornness would be passed on to three Chapters, at least), yet very pragmatic, so can make the right decisions when he needs to, such as accepting Roboute's Codex decree. Yet when his blood is up, he's a crusading bad-ass, as the Iron Cage and his participation in the defense of Terra against Horus and subsequent Black Crusades would show.
He's also an expert in siegecraft, like his nemesis Perturabo. And I've always held a fascination with siege warfare

I may expand on this further but, the way I see it is Dorn is the personification of the journey from the bright days of the Great Crusade to the grim darkness of the 41st millenium.

He is loyal, he is a goody, he is heroic, he is true.

Then there's Curze and that's just the start.

And things keep going, Horus rebels, he, the stalwart 2nd in command, the Praetorian is put in charge of defending the Imperium from him.

Having to effectively destroy the palace to turn it into a fortress was fairly bad, then there's the incident in The Last Remembrancer.

And of course, there's the Siege of Terra, where everything he'd done, sacrificed for is for nothing. He can't protect his own father. He didn't even get to stand with him at the end. He was too late. He failed.

And then what happens, when he's at his lowest. Having to effectively entomb his own father, who turns up, Roboute effing Gulliman with a bunch of buddies. Who goes and says:

"Hey buddy, thanks for the whole defending Terra and the imperium thing while I was delayed doing my nails while waiting for the warp storms to go down and doing a bit of writing between naps. Me and my buddies who I've managed to 'rescue' will be taking charge now. Oh, you don't like the idea, well, my mates are pretty well rested and up to full strength, while you've literally been through hell. So budge over there, I'll take the wheel now."

So, of course after all that. Dorn has had enough. He's been beaten down again and again. There's only one real way, he sees it to regain some glory, some feeling of being alive. One grand gesture, a forlorn hope, forth Eorlingas!

And so, he leads his men to the Iron Cage.


He could almost be described as the Primarch Woobie.

I think there are real echoes of Theoden (in some ways) in the character. And many other Generals in history/fiction that are portrayed sympathetically. The ones that realise they are having to do increasingly terrible things in the name of survival. And all from the back lines. For a noble leader, few things could be that tormenting.

As in most of the Primarchs, even the traitors, there existed admirable traits. All heroic characters have a major flaw which leads them to being undone in some fashion... it's the law!

With Dorn, while we admire the loyalty, the steadfastness in the face of terrible odds (and the fact that he isn't Guilliman for some of us ) it was his near pathological single-mindedness that lead him to beat his Legion against the Cage unnecessarily. Destroying his Legion in this fashion wasn't a simple "brain-fart", but a major flaw in his personality. His Legion, and now the Imperial Fists Chapter carries this in their DNA. That doggedness, that single-mindedness was an asset in the defence preparations on Terra. Elsewhere, however, we see the tragic consequences.

Dorns flaw was there for everyone to see. Perturabo (what an unfortunate name... lol) was well aware of his brothers failing and designed the Cage with Dorn in mind.

I' say most underated P ever.....shame, he saved Terra with his defences and then that Guiliman takes over....

Definitely a Primarch with tragedy throughout his story arc from what i know. Also the Iron cage wasn't about his stubbornness it was because he felt he failed his father.

It was stubborn that he didn't break it off until the Ultramarines got involved.

He's a good Primarch IMO but when it boils down to personal philosophy, he's really not that likeable to me.

Easily I consider the best of all the Primarchs, without a doubt the Loyal if you decide to include Horus.

He took command of the Imperium in a time of Chaos and organized its defense from all traitors, those siding with Horus, and those simply doing something the Emperor did not support (the Assassins, Guillman, etc)

He showed himself to be an extremely capable leader, hosted one of the best legions, Respected by everyone (friend and foe), smart (refering to his attitude when he heard of the Emperor, and how quickly he realized who the Emperor was when they met) and incredibly loyal.

Of course he aint perfect but I consider him the best of all the loyal Primarchs. (Sanguine next)

Garvy wrote:
I' say most underated P ever.....shame, he saved Terra with his defences and then that Guiliman takes over....

Haha, you're so butthurt.

I think Dorn is a pretty cool guy, I like how, like the Lion before them, Perturabo made him look like an idiot.

he doesnt come off that well in Fear To Tread either. He's made to look like a tightass who is also kind of a dick what with him locking up his legions Librarians after Nikea.

He literally throws a giant tantrum in front of Garro when presented with Horus' betrayal, then slinks off to sulk in his room.

He kills that guy in the last remembrancer without even bothering to check if his writing had anything of substance, no lets just "burn everything".

I think he's the best Primarch. But I haven't read any of the HH novels, so I really wouldn't know if he is a bad character.

Harriticus wrote:The Index Astartes made him out to be a lot less of an arrogant blindly loyal dick then the HH series. But that makes sense, as the Index Astartes in many ways were intentionally pseudo-legendary.

Personally, I find the Index Astartes articles notably less pseudo-legendary than the usual Codex fluff. It was refreshingly free of the usual myth-exaggeration and vagueness and actually came off as fairly objective, considering that the texts do stuff like openly discrediting the Marine creation process as having become degenerated and shrouded in silly superstition harming medical efficiency.

I think it's more likely that the various novel authors just had a different opinion of him, as is often the case with Black Library books. Remember, it's all about interpretations.

Speaking of the Index Astartes, the Imperial Fists article made me respect Dorn a great deal. If I'd have to pick a favourite, he'd be in the closer selection.

"In particular, Rogal Dorn was more amenable to requests from other institutions for assistance than other Primarchs, and this built a valuable store of goodwill. When the Age of Apostasy engulfed the Imperium, none of the protagonists were willing to risk their good relations with the Chapter, which continued to conduct a campaign against the Ebon League unaffected. Often, the Imperial Fists were able to unify the rival factions to face a local threat which would have otherwise found them divided and vulnerable."

"Rogal Dorn outlived many of his Brother Primarchs and each loss saddened him greatly. Also, as fewer Primarchs remained, each began to attract unhealthy respect. With the Emperor on Terra, some distant systems began to deify the Primarchs they encountered. To Dorn, only the Emperor was worthy of this attention and he feared the consequences."

"[...] A Fortress-Chapel was duly consecrated, but the Imperial Fists were there as esteemed guests, not masters. Rogal Dorn asked no special rights on the worlds where the Fists recruited. Some Primarchs, such as the increasingly mercurial Perturabo, took every opportunity to garrison a world and claim its tithes. Dorn is famously recorded as saying 'I want recruits not vassals', and was always satisfied to keep his Legion a military unit with none of the civilian responsibilities that came with having a homeworld."

All these things would hint at the guy having a great personality. If I'd have to hazard a guess, those who don't like him probably do so because they may not value his willingness to cooperate with the Imperial government, or because he died a comparatively "un-epic" death at the hands of just a few CSMs, hurting some people's extreme expectations of what a Primarch should be capable of.

Dorn always seemed to be the overeager suck-up child of the Emperor. Whenever I picture him, I see a child who idolizes his dad, and will do anything and everything to make his father happy. Hence why he based the imperial fists on terra, so that they could protect the emperor, and why he created the palace defenses. To Dorn everything was simple and straightforward. The emperor was everything, protecting the Emperor was his duty. He seemed to perceive the world with a naive sense of absolutes. Everything was black and white for him.

When the Emperor was killed by Horus, and he was not even around at the time to die defending the Emperor it shattered that emotional naivete that he seemed to have. He lost the greatest, most important hero of his life, essentially the sole purpose he lived for. Further, his brother Sanguinus even managed to try and help the Emperor against Horus but he was unable to. This was a personal failing of unimaginable proportions to Dorn. In his world of absolutes He should have died defending the Emperor, he shouldn't have been the one to carry his mortally wounded body to the golden throne.

The loss of the Emperor and his main purpose to live shook him to his core and were the primary reasons for him to create the black templars as well as the misguided assault on the Iron Warriors fortress. They were acts of self flagellation. He wanted to be punished for failing the Emperor. He wants to redeem himself and make amends and so he has the black templar crusade fleet constantly trying to carry on what he used to do for the Emperor as a way of keeping a part of the Emperor alive through these actions.

To me Dorn is a very pitiful character. He was a great man, loyal, strong and dutiful. He was everything anyone would want in a child and soldier. However, the darkness and the grey areas of the galaxy eventually broke him and destroyed his heart, leaving him a shadow of the man he used to be. Dorn represents this childlike purity and simplicity.

I do agree with the vast majority of your post, which is actually very good Sylvana.

I would disagree that Dorn was overeager though and a suck up. He was the Primarch that knew what his father expected of him. He did not vie for his affection or his attention, did not squabble amongst his brothers like some, although their were some that did with him. He did not go out to antagonise his brothers but his truthfulness and belief in what his father had intended for the way that the Crusade was to be carried out was a source of contention for some.

He was, if anything, the personification of the Imperium before the fall of the Emperor.

Well, to be perfectly honest, the fact that Dorn could literally never tell a lie always makes me thing of this...



... I am sorry, just can't lie about it

I don't know why people don't like him so much - IMHO he was a real personification of a knight(noble, loyal, stoic, devoted), and the Lion wasn't in a any way....

Just to get this out of the way Sanguinius is my favorite primarch and if you tell me he's anything but awesome in rl I will straight up punch you out, that being said I really like Dorn. He has this sense of duty and loyalty you just can't but admire and even though he punches out Garro he still doesn't kill him which means he believes him but has a hard time coming to grips that his Warmaster, his brother turned from the light of the Emperor. Dorn is my second favorite Primarch he is a very easy to like character unlike his tactless and socially inept brother "The Lion."

 BrotherGnaeus wrote:
Just to get this out of the way Sanguinius is my favorite primarch and if you tell me he's anything but awesome in rl I will straight up punch you out

Nah, I agree with you there. But Dorn would be a great character and cool idea if GW hadn't decided to make the Imperial Fists their bitch. Really, every time someone gets knocked around its the Fists. They lost an entire company in the UM movie, and they lost it to chaos space marines that were as effective as wet noodles

I like Dorn 'cause his name is 'Dorn.'

To me, Dorn is the very model of a true Primarch. He is dutiful, obedient and does not waver when given a command by his father. He is a crafty general, a capable warrior, as well as being an architect of a great many wonders, and most important of all, he is a damn fine son.