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Hey. Not really in the rulebook, but just something I thought of before an upcoming game.

If both players deploy their armies using "Dawn of War" deployment and are separated by a cardboard "blind" before rolling to see who gets first turn, would it make sense to still have a Seize roll once the blind is removed and infiltrators/scouts have done their thing? Or would that be unnecessary rolling?

Thanks

-Bro

Why would possibly stealing the first turn from your opponent be a bad/useless thing if it's what you wanted?

I don't hate Weird Al (in fact I love him dearly) but I am curious as to why you're using blind deployments. Do you find it more interesting/tactical?

DoW

Blind deployment would pretty much remove any point in including the seize roll, yes... The whole point of that roll is to balance out the advantage of knowing you're going first when you deploy.

If you're deploying without knowing who is going to go first, that advantage is already removed.

Thanks, that's what we were thinking as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, isn't it cool to see your opponent's army from across the table with a little bit of surprise?

Although I guess the same surprise can be had if you just go get a drink or something while he deploys.

GW US in Baltimore did a game at a staff tourney like this one year, lots of fun. I wasn't staff but us Outriders got to enter the tourney.

 insaniak wrote:
Blind deployment would pretty much remove any point in including the seize roll, yes... The whole point of that roll is to balance out the advantage of knowing you're going first when you deploy.

If you're deploying without knowing who is going to go first, that advantage is already removed.

Seizing the initiative is done after deployment and after you've already determined who goes first. Even with a "blind" deployment, it should be the very last thing you do, including removing the blind, before moving to the first movement phase.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Seizing the initiative is done after deployment and after you've already determined who goes first.

Yes, that's the point. Because in a normal game, you determine who goes first at the same time as you determine who deploys first. So the Seize rule counteracts somewhat the ability of players to tailor their deployment in the sound knowledge that they are getting the first turn...

If you are deploying blind and rolling for first turn afterwards, that's not an issue. Both players deploy knowing that they might go first or second, and the Seize rule serves no purpose.

Quick question. Where are the "rules" for this Blind deployment type?

 insaniak wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Seizing the initiative is done after deployment and after you've already determined who goes first.

Yes, that's the point. Because in a normal game, you determine who goes first at the same time as you determine who deploys first. So the Seize rule counteracts somewhat the ability of players to tailor their deployment in the sound knowledge that they are getting the first turn...

If you are deploying blind and rolling for first turn afterwards, that's not an issue. Both players deploy knowing that they might go first or second, and the Seize rule serves no purpose.

Oh I agree that seizing has less of a purpose in this blind deployment but it does still have a purpose, no matter when you decide who goes when or whatever, the second turn player should always get the chance to seize after determining 1st and 2nd. And seizing is supposed to take place just prior to turn 1, so realistically it should happen after the deployments have been "revealed". But of course, it's all house rule at this point so who knows how they want to do it.

 Kevin949 wrote:
...no matter when you decide who goes when or whatever, the second turn player should always get the chance to seize after determining 1st and 2nd.

Why? What purpose is served in rolling for first turn, and then immediately rolling to see if the other player goes first instead? All you're doing is adding an extra roll for no good reason.

Seizing only makes any sense if something happens in between rolling for first turn and actually starting the game that may affect the first turn.

Why wouldn't you have STI ? It allows the person running an alpha strike list a second chance to fire it off. Depending on armies,HQ's abilities and stuff this 1/6 chance might become 1/2.

It's part of the rules and needs to be used.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
...no matter when you decide who goes when or whatever, the second turn player should always get the chance to seize after determining 1st and 2nd.

Why? What purpose is served in rolling for first turn, and then immediately rolling to see if the other player goes first instead? All you're doing is adding an extra roll for no good reason.

Seizing only makes any sense if something happens in between rolling for first turn and actually starting the game that may affect the first turn.

Unless you REALLY wanted to go first and rolled up to go second. Say like if you brought an all drop pod army or something. Who knows, there's a bunch of variables that could be in play that would warrant it. It only take 5 seconds to roll the dice another time anyway, I don't see the big deal honestly.

Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. Where are the "rules" for this Blind deployment type?

there are none, but it is a concept that has been around in wargaming for ages:

You put a barrier of some type between the two deployment zones and then both players deploy without seeing opponent's deployment.

Brings a "fog of war" element which can be fun.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Why wouldn't you have STI ? It allows the person running an alpha strike list a second chance to fire it off. Depending on armies,HQ's abilities and stuff this 1/6 chance might become 1/2.

It's part of the rules and needs to be used.

It's part of the rules because the rules revolve around the person who set up first getting to go first. If you alter the set up rules and change the timing of determining who goes first to after deployment, STI no longer has a purpose.

Kevin949 wrote:Unless you REALLY wanted to go first and rolled up to go second. Say like if you brought an all drop pod army or something.

One of the players preferring to go first is an odd reason to include an otherwise uneccessary rule.

You could do Seize the Initiative rolls with blind deployment, but as with some other posters, I'm not sure what the point would be. Since you don't get to DO anything with respect to your opponents plans between deciding who goes first and seizing, it doesn't really add all that much. Maybe a better solution would just be to have players roll off after deployment has been revealed, and then the winner gets to decide whether he goes first or second.

RegalPhantom wrote:
You could do Seize the Initiative rolls with blind deployment, but as with some other posters, I'm not sure what the point would be. Since you don't get to DO anything with respect to your opponents plans between deciding who goes first and seizing, it doesn't really add all that much. Maybe a better solution would just be to have players roll off after deployment has been revealed, and then the winner gets to decide whether he goes first or second.

You're only looking at the pre-deployment aspect of it. Since it's a blind deployment there's still a good chance that you put your guys in a really good (or really bad) spot at the start of the game and you NEED that first turn to either exploit or fix it.

There's more than just one angle to deployment, especially in this Blind scenario.

Just to let everyone know, we ran a game and did not Seize the Initiative, or whatever.

Worked well just rolling off for first turn. Both sides deployed rather defensively.

It was Tyranids vs. Plague Marines, so there was not much on the "Alpha Strike" side to comment on...