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Hello all!

So my local meta is composed of around 40% Menoth. Its pretty brutal to have such a large amount of one faction. So far I have be playing around at 25 points with a friend's Cryx army, but I want to get out of this child's play and start my own army, eventually playing manly games of 50 points and competing in local events.

Anyway, I don't have any preference whatsoever as to what army I want to play, I like the look and feel of all of them except Cygnar, Ret, and Legion of Everblight slightly less than the others.

I'll get to the point eventually...

What would be, in your opinions, the best faction to go against Menoth, as in what faction does Menoth have the hardest time against in competitive play, and why? Difficulty curve, accessibility, nothing like that matters. I'll learn to use any faction to its peak ability through practice eventually. Once I get to 50 or so points, I really don't want to suddenly find out that my chosen faction is actually countered by Menoth and I might as well not pay to play in events.

As a side note, (and I trully mean this in the most non-offensive way possible, although I will probably seem rude, so my apologies in advance) I would appreciate it if no one said anything like "every faction is balanced, just play what you like the look of." That is a completely false statement. No matter what the game is, anything at all, it is NOT 100% balanced. Everything has some kind of weakness in these kinds of games, and certain factions will be better at exploiting them than others. Not only this, but I really like the game's look as a whole, and can't pick out one specific faction I want to paint and model over the others...

Thanks in advance for any help!

Retribution. Magical Ranged game everywhere. Ignore LoS to gimp our support pieces. 3 of our strongest casters (Harby, Sevvy, pKreoss) tend to have lowish base ARM so Mage Hunters are just kind of "LOL".

I play Menoth, and I tend to have quite a bit of trouble with Khador, so that's what I voted. Basically, their jacks are just that little bit better than our that if they hit us (or our choir dies out), our jacks die pretty quickly.

After reading Chongara's comments, I have to agree that Ret can be a good match due to the fact that they have a lot of Magical Ranged attacks.

The third option, IMO, is Cygnar. They can have so many ranged attacks they can kill all of our support quite handily. Without support, Menoth's jacks are pretty bad.

I haven't had too much trouble yet with any of the Hordes factions. However, WM seems to be way more popular around here, so I haven't played against them as much.

I'll add a vote for Khador as well. Specifically its those dang Man-o-wars.

While Khador does have better quality Jacks and Units, aren't they more expensive as well?

Also doesn't PoM's support make them equal to or better than Khador equivalents in the end?

Huh? wrote:
While Khador does have better quality Jacks and Units, aren't they more expensive as well?

Also doesn't PoM's support make them equal to or better than Khador equivalents in the end?

They support them differently. Khador jacks are better point for point and they have spells like superiority or unearthly rage that put them over the top. They don't run many jacks well though and the choir shuts down the khador ranged game pretty hard while fire spam can really put it to winter guard death stars. You're probably asking the wrong question if you want to know what factions specifically counters menoth well since the faction has a multitude of very divergent builds and a very high damage potential. I would probably say that trolls give them the best run for their money. They're pretty much immune to purification as their army buffs aren't spell based and they don't depend on a ranged game or debuffs that the choir or book make impossible. They also have access to units that are great at killing both infantry swarms and heavy jacks.

The other thing is Menoth needs the jack support to make their jacks awsome. Khador has effectivly less links in the chain(so is less vulnerable to losing them)

First, ask yourself why you are so afraid of Menoth-then ask yourself if a faction you want to play can deal with that. Also, Aiyanna and Holt=pain in the ass for menoth. This is not a play what you want because it's all balanced, it's a play what you want because you might hate a faction you started only to fight Menoth. In addition, your meta can shift. Make sure to talk to the Menoth players that you know and ask how they would deal with their army if they were you.

IMO, Ret gives Menoth the hardest time, with the extreme caveat that Vindictus is a very bad matchup for Ret. If the menoth players play vindictus, well it's not going to be fun. (i.e. this turn, i shunt MHSF shots to immortal zealots, another turn, i shunt them to zealots and your MHSF dies, then i just transfer them to zealots). Also be aware that they may start playing vindictus. Good luck.

EDIT: Having a large portion of your meta play one faction can just mean that you will get good at fighting them.

The club i go to is mostly khador so i kinda feel your pain but i find that rets vs warjack of anykind the rets tend to win random suggestion of a leigon army because a few of the beast have armor peircing

As was alluded to, kill the choir first. Then the Vassal and the Book.

Admittedly I haven't played Menoth much, but I love my Cryx and they seem to have an answer for just about anything out there.

I also like my Cygnar against them. Plenty of magical shooting is available and a whole host of helpful mercs.

That said, people will change their game if you bring a counter and people do change or play more than one faction. Also, if you play Ret then there are non-Menoth armies you will have difficulty against. Any heavy or all stealth list will make life really hard for you. Even if you beat every Menoth player you are only winning 40% of your games. That still leaves 60% to be decided by other factors.

If you are looking for competitive then really all the factions have options available to them. I'd pick one you like and then figure out what works and what doesn't. Base it on looks, specific units or casters, or whatever. Most tournaments have 2 or sometimes even 3 lists you can bring and play. That allows you do to alot of list tailoring. Also realise that the meta shifts which each new book and model released.

Yeah, I know you said you didn't want to hear that, but it is the truth. No not all units and casters, etc are balanced, but each faction has it's own power models and casters. And there is a bad match-up for just about everyone of those. So pick the flavor of the month if you want. There are plenty of "power" lists/builds all over the internet if that is what you want. But if I were you I would try to glean more about what is good and bad about each faction and their units/casters instead of playing a cookie cutter list. Eventually things will change and if you have a cookie cutter list then you will just fall hard.

Also, frankly, playing those bad matchups will make you a better player overall. And this game really is more about skill than luck or power lists.

@ Mordekeim,

Thanks for your post. I understand exactly where you are coming from, I've heard it all before and I appreciate it every time its said.

However, my intent is not specifically to beat Menoth's face in, its mainly just to obtain an army that will not get its face beat in. Like I said in my OP, I want an army that won't autolose or be at any disadvantage against Menoth. Since opinions vary so much, if I ask for what counters Menoth, and take the info I get fairly loosely, I'll be able to see what armies don't auto-lose to Menoth.

I don't have much intention to grab RoS just because its in the top slot right now. I'm actually leaning towards Khador, as they have gotten a decent amount of votes (at least enough to confirm they won't do poorly against Menoth) and its pretty hard to argue with Steampunk Russians in the first place.

The sets are all good values for starting up.

If one of the Menoth players is willing to split the 2 player boxed set you end up paying about half price for the models, discounting the rule book and quickstart rules pamphlet.

I figured the Kador in the set is worth around $120. The Menoth is around $130.

The box is only $99.99 so you save over $150. Sell the Menoth to another player for $50 and you've gotten $120 worth of Kador and the rule book for only $50

Specifically you get 5 Man-o-War Shock Troopers, Kommander Sorscha, a Juggernaut, and a Destroyer. All resin.

Kreoss1 owns Khador. Purification and Lamantation means Khador does not get to use any of their tricks. Iron flehed winter gaurd is awesome when they are laying on the ground

I'm actually kinda surprised the points in the 2 player arn't equal. The Menoth have 1 more point then the Kador. Not sure what you could buy with just 1 point but its a large discrepency.

The starter boxes are not balanced by points, but by model content and ability. Most of the battle boxes are off by a point or two as well.

Close enough I guess.

not as bad as the GW boxes(AOBR had a couple hundred point discrepency)

 ICleadpeople wrote:
Kreoss1 owns Khador. Purification and Lamantation means Khador does not get to use any of their tricks. Iron flehed winter gaurd is awesome when they are laying on the ground

So... are we just going to leave it at that?

By all the talk of "this game is super balanced" I'm sure Khador must have an answer or two to pKreoss.

Huh? wrote:

 ICleadpeople wrote:
Kreoss1 owns Khador. Purification and Lamantation means Khador does not get to use any of their tricks. Iron flehed winter gaurd is awesome when they are laying on the ground

So... are we just going to leave it at that?

By all the talk of "this game is super balanced" I'm sure Khador must have an answer or two to pKreoss.

Top of my head, Harkevich 'Jack list says LOL, as does eIrusk MoW brick, heck even just anyone running IFP are a bit less vulnerable to that trick. So long as you don't get your caster popped via a redeemer or some silliness you'll stand a good chance of recovering. Auto-hits are really not the end of the world if you were probably going to be hit in the first place, I'd say the worse of it the loss of actions next round.

That's just as someone who has a general knowledge of the sorts of thins Khador can field. I'm sure someone who actually plays the faction (or plays pKreoss) could give better/more complete answers.|

EDIT: Scenarios help too. While 14" is a good control area, it's usually not enough to cover all relevant zones unless you're playing Kreoss *really* forward and the dude is only marginally more resilient than pSevvy. In those cases the action is going to be split up by the nature of the game and you're only going to be able to deliver the feat on so many models.

 ICleadpeople wrote:
Kreoss1 owns Khador. Purification and Lamantation means Khador does not get to use any of their tricks. Iron flehed winter gaurd is awesome when they are laying on the ground

prime irusk. feat turn. cant be knocked down. if you play smart, and pop yours before he pops his, you gain an extra turn of pushing up and attrition, which is what khador does best.

purification is nice, but its a bit of a trap too. it hits all upkeeps, so kreoss' excellent upkeeps run off the board too. its a good trick to bait thr Menoth player with things like IF, and force him to go for purification instead of holding up his upkeeps. and thats three less focus going into the rocket spamming jacks.

Kreoss is nasty. But he, like everybody else, has his hard counters.

I wouldnt say This army Counters That army...

its more so... Which Warcaster Counters what Warcaster ?

 Spyder68 wrote:
I wouldnt say This army Counters That army...

its more so... Which Warcaster Counters what Warcaster ?

Or even this unit counters that unit. Each caster/unit have things they do not excell against and usually things they do. Iron Fleshed Kayazy can be very tough, but sometimes something as simple as covering fire can just about neutralize them. High def is very good, but there are things to counter it. Knock down feats are countered by units that cannot be knocked down. etc etc. The game plays out eternally...

As a Menoth player, a pKreoss fan, I can say that the Butcher makes it a sad day for pop 'n drops. Camping Butcher is just too tough to kill with Redeemer shots, even with boosted damage, to crack in a turn. After that, even with being able to purify off Iron Flesh, he's just dang hard to kill.

However, this does not hold true for Menoth as a whole. One thing that I have discovered while playing Menoth is that, the longer you play the faction, the more reasons you find to always take the Avatar. Cautious use of the Avatar, with Vassal and Choir support, simply ends games.

As far as match-ups as a whole are concerned, Ret truly is Menoth's hardest counter. Unless the Menoth player brought Feora, Thyra, and now Kreoss3 to the table, then Snipe-Feat-Go is almost an auto-win. Even outside of Ravyn, the speed, Ret's melee and (magical) ranged hitting power, and general shenanigans (I'm looking at you, Kaelyssa's feat) often leaves a Menoth player unable to bring their full force to bear, even on a counter-attack. In short, Ret is your best bet vs. the followers of the Lawgiver.

No Circle Love up here yet, but I'd say that some of the stuff in circle really runs rampant over menoth. the woldwarden has geomancy, so that helps alot (im 50% sure it gets around menoth's ability to double the focus spent by casters on spells, depends on the exact wording) Krueger can cut through infantry, especially with tharns with the UA and WA, Morvahna can influence right back on menoth, and shifting stones and kaya can fling models all over the board. not to mention Lord of the feast, who's a teleporting, crow-throwing homewrecker. The incredible mobility of circle could be a serious problem for Menites. not to mention how many damn trees and rough terrains circle can put up. very few things in menoth come with pathfinder, so barring several exceptions such as Vindictus and whatever he gives true path to, Everyone will be slogging slowly, crippling their ability to respond to attacks.

 OlGreye wrote:
No Circle Love up here yet, but I'd say that some of the stuff in circle really runs rampant over menoth. the woldwarden has geomancy, so that helps alot (im 50% sure it gets around menoth's ability to double the focus spent by casters on spells, depends on the exact wording) Krueger can cut through infantry, especially with tharns with the UA and WA, Morvahna can influence right back on menoth, and shifting stones and kaya can fling models all over the board. not to mention Lord of the feast, who's a teleporting, crow-throwing homewrecker. The incredible mobility of circle could be a serious problem for Menites. not to mention how many damn trees and rough terrains circle can put up. very few things in menoth come with pathfinder, so barring several exceptions such as Vindictus and whatever he gives true path to, Everyone will be slogging slowly, crippling their ability to respond to attacks.

Indeed, and Errants arn't exactly pushovers in melee.

errants are alright, but still not gonna turn the tide against a speed/teleportation list from circle. and they die pretty quickly once something decides they gotta go.

 OlGreye wrote:
errants are alright, but still not gonna turn the tide against a speed/teleportation list from circle. and they die pretty quickly once something decides they gotta go.

They're certainly not invincible. However they do provide good solutions to most of what you had listed in your previous post between pathfinder, hunter, purity and self sacrifice. Since they can't be targeted by spells, don't care about forests, and deny any abilities that require you to destroy the target such as heart eater or berserk. They also lack enough value to be a good trade with the attacks of most heavy infantry. If you're running them with a caster who has a +ARM buff (or better yet defender's ward) they prove frustratingly hard to remove with POW 10 auto-hits. Combine that with the fact that Errants are an overwhelmingly popular unit choice it means those approaches in general may not give the faction in general as much trouble as it first appears.

Truth is though, I mostly just wanted to play around with MS Paint.

 Mordekiem wrote:

 Spyder68 wrote:
I wouldnt say This army Counters That army...

its more so... Which Warcaster Counters what Warcaster ?

Or even this unit counters that unit. Each caster/unit have things they do not excell against and usually things they do. Iron Fleshed Kayazy can be very tough, but sometimes something as simple as covering fire can just about neutralize them. High def is very good, but there are things to counter it. Knock down feats are countered by units that cannot be knocked down. etc etc. The game plays out eternally...

Both of these things. I would say that it's nearly impossible to advise you without knowing what cesters are the most popular. If the player base is utilizing the length and breadth of the faction as a whole, then sorry, boyo. There IS no hard counter. The better advice is "this faction will get wtfpwnd by Menoth, so don't bother with it." Otherwise it's generally a caster by caster and unit by unit basis as mentioned. You have less of a desire to play Ret, but they do have a good number of solid counters for Menoth and can manage other factions as well (despite a minor weakness against stealth.) I might advise to stick with Cryx, as I've never seen Menoth buff as well as Cryx DEbuffs. And also its funny to watch models fight over souls. Errants always annoy me though, especially when I'm soul hunting, but Bile Thralls mulch them handily.

II think a teleportation spam might be kind of good against a lot of menoth lists. use shifting stones, lord of feast and either kaya and just basically fly around the board shredding models. If your opponent fields a unit you cant deal with, just go around it.