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I'm having difficulty finding information regarding all of the different units available and I was hoping someone could help me out with a run-down of the various 40k "supplements." Essentially, I just don't really know what Forge World, Imperial Armor (if that's what it's called), and White Dwarf units there are and how they fit into standard play. The general idea that I get is that occasionally White Dwarf (for instance) will include a new unit within its pages and provide rules for it. Do Forge World and Imperial Armor do the same? Are those two publications? If so, how do you get access to their "books?" Or are there any books? Are these units legal to field?

Etc... I'm just confused. I played against a guy who fielded GK and used some weird tall dreadnought thing, and a Tau player who used what looked like a T-Rex. Where did these come from?

Was the weird tall dreadnought thing a Dreadknight? Tats a codex unit.

The Trex might be from FW but I'm not sure.

Forge World books usually list the units in them in some of the screenshots.
Look on www.forgeworld.co.uk.
The 2 Apocalypse books are the rules for big games, but have rules for models used in normal games, too.
The other Imperial Armour books are more specific, with usually 2 armies per book.

White Dwarf has the odd codex (Sisters of Battle), and some models (Stormtalon). Good luck finding a list, though.

The tall dreadnought wasn't a dreadknight, as far as I know... it was definitely out of Imperial Armor as he has the stats on his phone and not in his codex. It had two twin-linked lascannons and a missile thing on top, and it had skyfire and interceptor.

But what I'm really getting at is... just what ARE Imperial Armor and Forge World? Are they legal supplements to the already existing armies and codexes with new units and new rules that can just be used on top of the normal codexes? Or are they only usable in certain types of games? Or are they something completely different? And if they ARE books with new units, why do I never see any huge hype about them being released? And how legal are the units in White Dwarf?

 Tangent wrote:
The tall dreadnought wasn't a dreadknight, as far as I know... it was definitely out of Imperial Armor as he has the stats on his phone and not in his codex. It had two twin-linked lascannons and a missile thing on top, and it had skyfire and interceptor.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/CONTEMPTOR_PATTERN_DREADNOUGHT_BODY.html
With guns obviously.

But what I'm really getting at is... just what ARE Imperial Armor and Forge World? Are they legal supplements to the already existing armies and codexes with new units and new rules that can just be used on top of the normal codexes? Or are they only usable in certain types of games? Or are they something completely different? And if they ARE books with new units, why do I never see any huge hype about them being released? And how legal are the units in White Dwarf?

The White Dwarf units are Codex updates. FW/IA are 40k approved depending on who you talk to. The blurb at the beginning of the books says they're official but you should make sure your opponent is comfortable playing against that unit.

FWIW that Contemptor is well over 200 points, probably edging on 300. And I didn't think it had Skyfire and Interceptor.

rigeld2 wrote:
FWIW that Contemptor is well over 200 points, probably edging on 300. And I didn't think it had Skyfire and Interceptor.

From what he's described it's definitely a contemptor-mortis pattern dreadnought, so long as you don't move it you get the AA mount special rule, and you're more likely to be looking at only ~220 points for that with the dual twin-linked lascannons and the cyclone launcher.

The Dreadnought is a Contemptor Mortis, from Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd Edition. With the LasCannons and the Cyclone Missile Launcher it is a bit over 200 points. It has Skyfire if it doesn't move, but it does not have Interceptor. I also don't think that it is available to Grey Knights, but I would have to double check that.

I have no idea what the Tau thing is, but I'm less familiar with their things.

Forgeworld is considered a legal supplement, and their non-Apocalypse only items should in general be acceptable in any regular game of 40k.

HOWEVER: there are a number of people that have varied opinions about Forgeworld, so it is good form to talk with your opponent about it, and make sure that they are willing to face off against them. Further, having a copy of the rules that your opponent can look over is also a good idea.

I imagine the Tau thing is a Kroot Great Knarloc

Here is pictures of the 4 models that it is in





You will find him featured orginally in IMPERIAL ARMOUR VOLUME THREE - THE TAROS CAMPAIGN. Almost all the Tau centric models are featured in IA3 save the newer battlesuits which are featured in IMPERIAL ARMOUR APOCALYPSE II and their flyers which the most current rules are located in IMPERIAL ARMOUR AERONAUTICA and last but not least the Kroot Knarloc riders are located in IMPERIAL ARMOUR APOCALYPSE SECOND EDITION, all the Tau flyers featured in that book were superseded by the Aeronautica book.


Confused yet

The Tau T-rex sounds like this:



Kroot Great Knarloc, there are a few varients.

the legality of FW stuff is always in dispute and GW is not helpful in getting a ruling. The main problem is FW only publishes their rules in huge $100+ tomes that must be ordered from the UK.

Which makes it easy for players to make all sorts of claims about their rules and point values with very few people in a position to fact check them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
opps, ninja'ed!

The contemptor dreadnought looks very close to what he showed me a picture of. However, he definitely said that its from Imperial Armor, not Forge World, and that it had Skyfire and Interceptor. If I remember right, it was something like 225 or 235 points with the equipment that I mentioned in an earlier post. Its front armor was 13 (which seems high for a walker).

The Tau monster that I saw is definitely the Great Knarloc, and he was fielding the model in the 4th picture posted by NuclearMessiah.

Ok, so, correct me if I'm wrong:

White Dwarf releases (within the magazine that you must purchase) units and updates to rules occasionally, and these are all considered legal to use.

Forge World normally just creates cool models to sell, but also occasionally releases expensive books with rules for some of the new models and are generally considered acceptable to run with permission from your opponent.

But what is Imperial Armor? Is it essentially the exact same thing as Forge World with a different name? And who makes the models and where can you buy them?

For what it's worth, I didn't have any problems with my opponents fielding these units. It's just that they, having used them, ignited a curiosity in me concerning FW, IA, and WD.

Imperial Armor is the name of the books the contain the rules and campaigns/stories associated with Forge Worlds models. They are produced by FW.

Here is a link to all the current Imperial Armour books FW has http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books

Tangent wrote:Ok, so, correct me if I'm wrong:
White Dwarf releases (within the magazine that you must purchase) units and updates to rules occasionally, and these are all considered legal to use.
Forge World normally just creates cool models to sell, but also occasionally releases expensive books with rules for some of the new models and are generally considered acceptable to run with permission from your opponent.

That is essentially correct, although I would add that the label of a respective release is even more important than what book or magazine it was released in. "Chapter Approved", for example, means that an article is in essence an addition to GW's Codex-level material and that in a normal GW game its contents can be fielded without the opponent's permission. I'm not entirely sure, but I think some rules in GW were released without this stamp and as such are more suggestions rather than additions, similar to the Forgeworld books ... or the drop-pod Sisters and the Ephrael Stern Dreadnought in Citadel Journal.

In the end, the difference is somewhat negligible, as in practice, "opponent's consent" is a basic requirement for any game, regardless of what kind of list you are using. It's not like you can force another player to fight you, after all.
As such, it is really only important for tournaments, where the organizer may enforce specific rules banning or allowing "special" armies or models. But as far as I know, tournament rules differ from event to event, so that's something you'd have to look up individually.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Which makes it easy for players to make all sorts of claims about their rules and point values with very few people in a position to fact check them.

Simplest way to fact check them is to have the opponent provide the book to read the proper entry, or a print out from the website of the "experimental" rules for a new unit that has yet to be included in an IA book yet. That is the easiest way to avoid any arguments on the subject. Even that easy step, though, seems impossible for some people. I would even accept someone who had a PDF of the actual IA book on their portable device. Not going to judge on the legality of such PDFs, but if it is the actual book it still has the correct rules in it.

If I see something new on the table I will often ask to see a codex or some other rules listing just to get an idea about what it is. Any opponent that refuses to allow me that ability is not going to be an opponent after all. I offer the same access and respect to my opponent. If I have to hide something from them to win then what is the point of playing the game in the first place?

Skriker

 Lynata wrote:
Ephrael Stern Dreadnought in Citadel Journal.

Interesting... tell me more.

FW is official, WD is official, codex is official. All of them are published by GW and intended for standard 40k.


Also, your opponent cheated. The Contemptor Mortis dread is NOT available to GK, and it clearly states this in its rules. This is why you should always demand to see the rules and read them carefully whenever you encounter an unfamiliar unit or army.

 Skriker wrote:
Simplest way to fact check them is to have the opponent provide the book to read the proper entry, or a print out from the website of the "experimental" rules for a new unit that has yet to be included in an IA book yet. That is the easiest way to avoid any arguments on the subject. Even that easy step, though, seems impossible for some people. I would even accept someone who had a PDF of the actual IA book on their portable device. Not going to judge on the legality of such PDFs, but if it is the actual book it still has the correct rules in it.

This. Don't play against people who refuse to provide the rules for their units and let you read them in detail. I will always bring the books and let my opponent read any rules they like (whether FW or codex) and clearly state what unit every model in my army represents. If your opponent refuses to do this, or just flashes the page at you and takes it away, they're probably cheating and hiding something.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Interesting... tell me more.

Eh, it wasn't much - just an example of what you could build with bitz.
Unlike Andy Hoare's Marine-hunting Drop Pod Sisters list it didn't even have any fluff to it.



Kind of like the new starship ideas they occasionally printed in the BFG magazine. I have one issue that features the Ecclesiarchy battleship "Hammer of Thor" from the Daemonifuge comic.

Peregrine wrote:FW is official, WD is official, codex is official. All of them are published by GW and intended for standard 40k.

Forgeworld books are published by ... *drumroll* Forgeworld. Why do you think they are not on this website but on their own?

They are as official as your off-the-mill Black Library novel, and just like them some may not mesh well with GW's own material. Hence it is left to the individual gamer to decide what to adopt and what to dismiss.

 Lynata wrote:
Forgeworld books are published by ... *drumroll* Forgeworld. Why do you think they are not on this website but on their own?

"Forge World" is a brand name that GW publishes certain products under, just like your models are sold under the Citadel brand name, and you buy White Dwarf magazine. It's all still the same company, and it's all part of 40k.

They are as official as your off-the-mill Black Library novel, and just like them some may not mesh well with GW's own material. Hence it is left to the individual gamer to decide what to adopt and what to dismiss.

Except Black Library novels are not sold with an explicit statement that they are official rules and part of standard 40k. FW books are.

 Peregrine wrote:



Also, your opponent cheated. The Contemptor Mortis dread is NOT available to GK, and it clearly states this in its rules. This is why you should always demand to see the rules and read them carefully whenever you encounter an unfamiliar unit or army.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that he was also using allies - standard space marines, I think. Is that dreadnought available to space marines?

 Tangent wrote:


Sorry, I forgot to mention that he was also using allies - standard space marines, I think. Is that dreadnought available to space marines?

Yes, it is, so this seems perfectly legit. He should however have shown you the rules before the game, if you were unfamiliar with the unit.

Peregrine wrote:"Forge World" is a brand name that GW publishes certain products under, just like your models are sold under the Citadel brand name, and you buy White Dwarf magazine. It's all still the same company, and it's all part of 40k.

Of course it's all part of the 40k franchise/IP, hence "official", depending on how you define it. That does not change at all that you can't simply lump it in with all the rest. Why exactly do you think it is that GW established sub-brands in the first place?
Black Library is a brand name that GW publishes certain products under as well, and these books are certainly not meant to mesh with GW's vision by default. It's a different studio, and it's different writers. If you listen to Dan Abnett's interview regarding the Space Marine movie, BL was established because GW wanted to distance the core studio from the artistic license that novel authors crave, because GW designers couldn't be bothered checking all the stuff that everybody else comes up with, and because the other team cannot wait months for approval. Maybe it's the same with FW, hm?

Peregrine wrote:Except Black Library novels are not sold with an explicit statement that they are official rules and part of standard 40k. FW books are.

Source and exact quote regarding the "part of standard 40k" please.

When Black Library books start to contain rules for 40K, we can start to worry about their official status.

 Lynata wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Except Black Library novels are not sold with an explicit statement that they are official rules and part of standard 40k. FW books are.

Source and exact quote regarding the "part of standard 40k" please.

Imperial Armour: Apocalypse Second Edition, page 3 wrote:3. Warhammer 40,000 unit: This unit is intended to be used in "standard" games of Warhammer 40,000, within the usual limitations of Codex selection and force organisation charts. As with all our models, they should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact that they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start.

There's a 22+ page thread in Tournament Discussions about the be or not to be of Forge World, so I'd suggest moving the arguments for and against there.

Crimson wrote:When Black Library books start to contain rules for 40K, we can start to worry about their official status.

To be fair, the fluff is as much a part of the game as the rules. Even GW designers said so.

So the way I understand it is that BL novels are simply optional additions (or replacements) for GW's own fluff - depending on what the individual player likes more - whereas the same goes for FW models, just for rules. Yet just like you can't (shouldn't) expect a random player to accept a BL interpretation you can't just assume FW is okay. Ask courteously, and most people will agree. At least I would.

Peregrine wrote:There's a 22+ page thread in Tournament Discussions about the be or not to be of Forge World, so I'd suggest moving the arguments for and against there.

So "intended to be used in", not "part of by default". Small but important difference there.

But you're right, the argument may be somewhat misplaced here. I don't actually intend to drag it out too much, I just thought it's important to point out the controversy.

They are official rules, says so in the books. I hope people would stop whining about it. Forgeworld makes gorgeus models and interesting, varied rules. The more people use them, the better.

Crimson wrote:

 Tangent wrote:


Sorry, I forgot to mention that he was also using allies - standard space marines, I think. Is that dreadnought available to space marines?

Yes, it is, so this seems perfectly legit. He should however have shown you the rules before the game, if you were unfamiliar with the unit.

Yeah, he did actually. I just didn't remember all the specifics and didn't look that closely when he showed me. They were on his phone and really small print.

Crimson wrote:They are official rules, says so in the books. I hope people would stop whining about it. Forgeworld makes gorgeus models and interesting, varied rules. The more people use them, the better.

The thing is, I'm the kind of person who craves balance in the rules, and while I can accept that GW doesn't design 40k to be balanced or competitive, I still recognize that the addition of more stuff can potentially serve to push the limits further out. I play D&D, and I'm looking at this from the standpoint of Dragon Magazine, which put out new rules and character options every month that were considered "official" but were often broken.

I understand your concern, but Forgeworld rules are rarely overpowered, certainly not moreso than normal GW rules. In fact, most of the FW stuff is kinda overpriced for what they do.

That's interesting - I would think it would be the opposite to try to get people to buy those models (being generally more expensive).

Crimson wrote:They are official rules, says so in the books. I hope people would stop whining about it. Forgeworld makes gorgeus models and interesting, varied rules. The more people use them, the better.

Official as in Forgeworld-official, yes. Black Library novels are official, too.
*I* hope people would stop trying to force the issue. It really will only ever be settled when a GW book clearly says so - that is when you will have evidence for your opinion.

What I do agree on is that their models are amazing, and all I've heard so far backs up your perception of the rules also. I wish they'd do something for SoB. :(

[edit] Something more, that is. Their current selection isn't ... overwhelming, and one would think that with the lack of support from GW themselves there'd actually be a market in this - at least the same as there is in creating additional Guard regiments!

Tangent wrote:That's interesting - I would think it would be the opposite to try to get people to buy those models (being generally more expensive).

I think this actually works in their favour. If public opinion would decry FW rules as OP, it would quickly gain a stigma that I imagine many collectors would want to avoid. And this is what I would imagine the average Forgeworld customer to be - a collector rather than "just" a regular gamer. People willing to shell out quite a few bucks more just to give their army a more unique look, rather than just being after the latest powercreep. Those who really invest in the appearance of their models, both financially as well as in the time they put into them.
I guess hobbyists packing Forgeworld armies can expect "oohs" and "aahs" from the gaming table they show up with, whereas ... I'm not entirely up-to-date on this, is it still SW and GK? .. the reaction to those armies would be quite different, even though the latter are GW.

 Lynata wrote:
Official as in Forgeworld-official, yes. Black Library novels are official, too.

Please stop using this terrible analogy. Black Library novels are official fiction, not rules. Forge World books explicitly state that they are official rules for 40k.

*I* hope people would stop trying to force the issue. It really will only ever be settled when a GW book clearly says so - that is when you will have evidence for your opinion.

It has been settled then. Every single Forge World book is a GW book, and all of the recent ones clearly say so.

 Crimson wrote:
I understand your concern, but Forgeworld rules are rarely overpowered, certainly not moreso than normal GW rules. In fact, most of the FW stuff is kinda overpriced for what they do.

good thing then that if something FW gets used its something as bad per nerf lucius pods , castus rams etc .