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So I am brand new to daemons. The wife recently purchased me a bunch daemons a little bit of csm. I have yet to play a game yet, I will be finished painting them after a few weeks tonight. Then it hit me ... I have no idea how to balance a daemon list. I will be mostly playing 1850 / 1999+1 games. I did hear about flamers/screamers are good so the wife did get some of those LOL. Daemon princes, I have no idea how to run them im assuming wings /tzeentch bolt? My local meta has lots of Space marine chapters, GK and IG. All of these are running flyers as well. Thanks a bunch!

This is what I have to work with
HQ
Fateweaver x1
Bloodthirster x1
Herald of tzeentch x1
Troops
Plaguebearers x 20
Bloodletters x 10
Pink Horrors x 20
Changeling x 1
Elites
Flamers x 27
Fast Attack
Screamers x 12
Heavy Support
Daemon Prince x 2
CSM Allies
Typhus x 1
Plaguemarines x 7
Obliterators x 3

Aegis Defense line gun/comm

I prefer a MC heavy list (four at 1850 - 2000), usually Fateweaver, one Bloodthirster, and two Daemon Princes. I always give the Princes MoT ( I like the 4++, especially when Fateweaver lets me reroll it). I also run them with Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze and Iron Hide (some people say this isn't worth the points).

For troops, I've started preferring smaller numbers of larger units instead of spamming 5 man squads of Horrors and Plaguebearers. I've never like Bloodletters, and they've only gotten worse in 6th.

A lot of what you decide to use will depend on your play style. I just happen to like playing with Monstrous Creatures, so I tend to prioritize them.

you can't go wrong with 27 flamers...

overall you have mostly strong units;
regarding DP, wings are kinda mandatory if you run them. go either Tz with breath/bolt, or Nurgle with breath

My main concern is your allied detachment; most units are very expensive and slow, while your daemons are fast ones; i'm not sure they fit very well together.

Maybe try building a list based on daemons only for the time being, to familiarize with it, and see what would benefit from allied CSM

undertow:
I would love to run a heavy MC list. Is it competitive ? Do you have trouble with objectives since so many points are tied up in 4-5 guys?

Arleucs:
I just listed all that I have, its not a actual list. If i ran the csm allies it would be for the aegis i think ?

Thanks for the feedback!

Voxick wrote:
undertow:
I would love to run a heavy MC list. Is it competitive ? Do you have trouble with objectives since so many points are tied up in 4-5 guys?

I've found it to be very competitive. Note that I'm not advocating a full Flying Circus build that maxes out FMCs (I think you can fit 6 in at 2k if you double FOC).

At 2000 points, four FMCs will still leave you with enough points for three decent size squads of troops (9-10 models per unit) or 5-6 smaller squads of 5. At this point level you can get three squads of 4-5 Flamers and a good sized unit of Screamers.

About the Flamers, they are amazing, probably broken levels of good. I have 27 of them but don't run nearly that many. I've found that my opponents really don't have much fun when I run that many, and if it's a friendly game at a local store, I'll run minimum squads or none at all. If it's a tournament game, I'll still only run small squads (4-5) as that gives me a decent amount of punch but doesn't feel like I'm cheesing my way to wins.

5x FMC works well at 1850, 4 is better imo tho. More pts for other toys.

Is your Herald of Tzeentch on a disc? If not, can you scratch build one?

For a fluffy list, I would run all Tzeentch, since you have the most of those daemons. Luckily, Tzeentch is competitive.

Hqs- Fateweaver and Herald on Disc.
Elites- One unit of 5-7 Flamers. Herald goes here. Bring more flamers if you are dead set on winning, I believe just one is fair in most games.
Troops- 2 Units of 5 Horrors with Bolt, 1 Unit of 10 with Bolt and Changeling (Scratch Build one, he is worth 5 points.)
Fast Attack- 2 Units of 6 Screamers.
Heavy Support - Two Princes with Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt, and Breath of Chaos. With Bolt, they can Skyfire flyers. With Breath, they torch troops. Just can't skyfire and breath same turn.
Fortifications- Aegis Defense Line with Comm Relay. Chaos Space Marines deploy behind it.

If you can get the models, a basic Sorcerer with 20-30 Cultists behind the defense line. For allies. I also run a Heldrake and it usually does well.

Things to note. If allied, Chaos Space Marines can't take Plague Marines as troops. Same with other cult troop choices. Also, if going all out to win, I wouldn't take allies. And HQ just the Herald, take all flamers and screamers, and 4 Units of 5 Horrors with Bolt. Not sure points comes out to though. If you can squeeze in Fateweaver and 2 winged princes go for it.


My 1850 List is just about the same. I run Fateweaver, Disc Herald, 5 Flamers, 2 units of 5 Horrors, I unit of 9 Horrors and Changeling. 2 Units of 5 Screamers. One Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt and Breath. Comm Relay Defense Line, Basic Sorcerer, 20 Cultists, and a Heldrake.

Well if typhus is the allied hq then i could take plague marines or not ? Sry I dont know much about CSM.

So competitive is literally...
HQ cheap
Spam
Pinks
Flamers
Screamers
lol

You can take Plague Marines, just not in the troop place.

The wording on Marked Chaos Lords/Sorcerers is "If a primary detachment includes mark of x, then y are troop choice instead of elite". And as you'll be having Daemons as your primary detachment and chaos space marines as your allied detachment you can't have scoring plague marines. You could always field them as Chaos Space Marines with mark of Nurgle.

Flamers and Screamers are really amazing right now. Everyone is hating on them, and spamming them isn't fun to play against. But don't let that stop you from playing them. I like flamers and used them in 5th.

As for Pink Horrors, I like them with Bolt. I play a mono-god army. Tzeentch is my favorite. But Plague Bearers more of a objective holder with higher toughness, and basically a re-rollable save (Same save as Feel No Pain.) they aren't going anywhere.

If you want a more balanced list, Typhus with Mark of Nurgle Marines and 2 Objective Holding Plague Bearers. Then fit in Horrors with left over points.

I run a Sorcerer and Cultists because they are cheap, but also they can go to ground behind the defense line. Anything that is fearless can't go to ground.

Voxick wrote:
Well if typhus is the allied hq then i could take plague marines or not ? Sry I dont know much about CSM.

You can't use Cult units (Plague Marines, etc) as troops in an allied detachment. For example: in Typhus' entry, under Lord of the Plague Host, it says 'In a primary detachment that includes Typhus, Plague Marines are troops ...'. So you can only do that if CSM are your Primary and Daemons are your allies.

So competitive is literally...
HQ cheap
Spam
Pinks
Flamers
Screamers
lol

Depends on what you think is competitive. That list has no way to deal with Flyers. You can make a well-rounded list that doesn't spam anything and have it be quite competitive.

I won Best Overall (also tied for Best General) at a tournament at my local GW Bunker a few weeks ago with this list: I didn't get my preferred wave in any of the three rounds I played. The next tournament is 2000 points with a required fortification, so I'll probably just add my Skyshield Landing Pad and another squad of troops (might have to alter the numbers of the current troop units).

HQ - 588
Fateweaver, Oracle of Tzeentch (333)
Bloodthirster (255) - Blessing of the Blood God.

Elites - 276
4 Flamers of Tzeentch (92)
4 Flamers of Tzeentch (92)
4 Flamers of Tzeentch (92)

Troops - 310
9 Plaguebearers of Nurgle (135)
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (175) - The Changeling.

Fast Attack - 175
7 Screamers of Tzeentch (175)

Heavy Support - 500
Daemon Prince of Chaos (250) - Daemonic Flight; Iron Hide; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch; Daemonic Gaze.
Daemon Prince of Chaos (250) - Daemonic Flight; Iron Hide; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch; Daemonic Gaze.

Really appreciate all the feedback!

Undertow that list looks really good.

I think after all the feedback SO FAR my current 2k list looks like this
1999pts

HQ (608pts)
Bloodthirster (275pts) with Blessings of the Blood God (5pts) & Death Strike (20pts),
Fateweaver, The Oracle of Tzeentch (333pts)

Elites (276pts)
6x Flamers of Tzeentch (138pts)
6x Flamers of Tzeentch (138pts)

Troops (385pts)
5x Pink Horrors (85pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (10pts)
5x Pink Horrors (85pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (10pts)
7x Plaguebearers (105pts)
6x Plaguebearers (90pts)

Fast Attack (300pts)
6x Screamers (150pts)
6x Screamers (150pts)

Heavy Support (430pts)
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (215pts) Daemonic Flight (60pts) Mark of Tzeentch (75pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (35pts) Daemonic Gaze (15pts)
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (215pts) Daemonic Flight (60pts) Mark of Tzeentch (75pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (35pts) Daemonic Gaze (15pts)


Thanks so much for all the feedback super new here just trying to get a better understanding of chaos!

As odd as it sounds I'd drop the Thirster in favor of more screamers/flamers.

I ran one a couple weeks ago in a tournament, he kind of underperforms, now he's not bad in any way and I agree with giving him the Str7 shot but he's so pricey and IMO more flamers/screamers would add more versatility to your list.

Try not to post specific point costs for the lists - although some of them are wrong - looking at you Daemon Prince.

I think you would benefit by losing Death Strike to add in the Changeling and an extra Plaguebearer on the 6 man unit.

I think a comms relay adds more than a skyshield for Daemons when you need to take a fortification.

Voxick wrote:
Really appreciate all the feedback!

Undertow that list looks really good.

I think after all the feedback SO FAR my current 2k list looks like this
1999pts

HQ (608pts)
Bloodthirster (275pts) with Blessings of the Blood God (5pts) & Death Strike (20pts),
Fateweaver, The Oracle of Tzeentch (333pts)

Elites (276pts)
6x Flamers of Tzeentch (138pts)
6x Flamers of Tzeentch (138pts)

Troops (385pts)
5x Pink Horrors (85pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (10pts)
5x Pink Horrors (85pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (10pts)
7x Plaguebearers (105pts)
6x Plaguebearers (90pts)

Fast Attack (300pts)
6x Screamers (150pts)
6x Screamers (150pts)

Heavy Support (430pts)
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (215pts) Daemonic Flight (60pts) Mark of Tzeentch (75pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (35pts) Daemonic Gaze (15pts)
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (215pts) Daemonic Flight (60pts) Mark of Tzeentch (75pts) Bolt of Tzeentch (35pts) Daemonic Gaze (15pts)




Thanks so much for all the feedback super new here just trying to get a better understanding of chaos!

I agree this looks good, but I would drop Death Strike and change the Plaguebearers to Bloodletters. Maybe splash out on some Bloodcrushers. Although Hellblades are now AP3 and Furious Charge no longer ups Initiative I still think Bloodletters are a good choice. They destroy small Marine and GK squads and are low priority targets compared to the rest. I suggest you at least try them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't bother with allies. Daemons as the main army work better alone. If it were CSM then I would go with Daemon allies but not the other way.

So another update !
Thinking the thirster may be a little 2 expensive? Downgraded to DP and changed my troop choices up a little bit.
Still not convinced bloodletters are good... deep strike no movement and furious charge nerf.

1988

333
Fateweaver, The Oracle of Tzeentch (333pts)

276
6x Flamers of Tzeentch (138pts)
6x Flamers of Tzeentch (138pts)

419
5x Pink Horrors (85pts) Bolt of Tzeentch
7x Pink Horrors (119pts) Bolt of Tzeentch
1x Changling (5pts) with above group
7x Plaguebearers (105pts)
7x Plaguebearers (105pts)

300
6x Screamers (150pts)
6x Screamers (150pts)

660
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (220pts) Daemonic Flight Mark of Tzeentch Bolt of Tzeentch Daemonic Gaze
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (220pts) Daemonic Flight Mark of Tzeentch Bolt of Tzeentch Daemonic Gaze
1x Daemon Prince of Chaos (220pts) Daemonic Flight Mark of Tzeentch Bolt of Tzeentch Daemonic Gaze

Thanks for the input! My list is coming along well!

 calypso2ts wrote:
Try not to post specific point costs for the lists - although some of them are wrong - looking at you Daemon Prince.

I think you would benefit by losing Death Strike to add in the Changeling and an extra Plaguebearer on the 6 man unit.

I think a comms relay adds more than a skyshield for Daemons when you need to take a fortification.

We talked in a different thread about the Comms Relay, and I think if you're not bringing in non-daemon allies then the risk of infiltrators taking your Relay is too great, plus you'd have to drop a troop on the relay and hope it doesn't scatter too far to be useable the next turn. I understand why you put it in your Daemons + CSM list, but in a pure Daemon list I think the Skyshield brings more to the table.

Also, I've checked the points and 250 is what a DP with Wings, Iron Hide, MoT, Bolt and Gaze costs. And as far as posting specific point costs, I thought we were to avoid specific costs for upgrades but total unit costs were fine?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
As odd as it sounds I'd drop the Thirster in favor of more screamers/flamers.

I ran one a couple weeks ago in a tournament, he kind of underperforms, now he's not bad in any way and I agree with giving him the Str7 shot but he's so pricey and IMO more flamers/screamers would add more versatility to your list.

I put the Bloodthirster in my list just on the off chance that I'll face a GK player. He's generally useful in other situations as I have more faith when throwing him at another CC oriented model than I do with a Daemon Prince. If I could be assured that he'd never have to fight Grey Knights, I'd probably replace him with a Lord of Change instead of another DP.

The points total was correct - the individual cost was not, even though you are not supposed to post the individual cost itself. I think Mark of Tzeetch was listed at 75 points?

Total unit costs are fine - there was just a specific breakdown before.

The Skyshield is 3 icons in cost. It provides DS w/o scatter and a potential 4++. That said, I do not even bring 1 icon at 1850 points, so I do not see why I would want a Sky Shield at three times the cost, that puts my troops somewhere in my deployment zone.

It is awesome for armies with strong long range shooting to protect - but I think it is lacking for a Daemon army. Is it worth taking a 4+ save or a 5+ rerollable from being near fateweaver because the bulk of your army needs to advance. Noting you cannot take that 4+ the turn you arrive on the skyshield either.

 calypso2ts wrote:
The points total was correct - the individual cost was not, even though you are not supposed to post the individual cost itself. I think Mark of Tzeetch was listed at 75 points?

Total unit costs are fine - there was just a specific breakdown before.

Ahh, I think you were talking to Voxick with your initial comment.

The Skyshield is 3 icons in cost. It provides DS w/o scatter and a potential 4++. That said, I do not even bring 1 icon at 1850 points, so I do not see why I would want a Sky Shield at three times the cost, that puts my troops somewhere in my deployment zone.

It is awesome for armies with strong long range shooting to protect - but I think it is lacking for a Daemon army. Is it worth taking a 4+ save or a 5+ rerollable from being near fateweaver because the bulk of your army needs to advance. Noting you cannot take that 4+ the turn you arrive on the skyshield either.

The Skyshield actually goes anywhere in your board half, not just your deployment zone. I've used it to good effect on 'The Relic' missions, where my entire army can DS right on the border of my board half. I see where you're coming from about the cost, but it's about the same cost as an ADL with Relay, and I don't think the ADL is great for Daemons, even with the relay. You have to drop one of your troops on it and hope it doesn't scatter out of running distance (assuming your not using Plaguebearers) so you can even use it on turn 2.

Since you can place the Skyshield on the border of your board half, you can use it to threaten your opponent, and force him to adjust his deployment according to where you place it. I still think it's a better match for us than an ADL.