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Hello guys,

Yesterday I played for the first time with my Orks vs IG 1k pts. That was terrible!

Me:
Big Mek KFF
3x 20 Boys + PK Nob
15 Lootas
3 Buggies with Rokkits
1 Dakkajet

Him:
Platoon with lot of heavy weap & troops
2 Russ
1 Hellhound
1 Vendetta (or Valkyrie can’t remember the name)
Bastion + flakk
Master of Ordnance

That Bastion thing and the flakk are a pain! I did not managed to take down the flakk before I made my dakkajet arrive (I needed firepower, as he was tearing my Orks), and the flakk just took it down as he entered the game.
I tried to take a Russ from rear with the buggies, but I was only able to deal a light damage, before they got obliterated by his heavy weap.
At turn 3, after 2 turns of Russ, bombardment and such, less than half of my Orks very still alive… /sigh

Well… after such painful experience, I need revenge!
But I also need advice as I don’t know how to deal with him. I think IG is one of the best anti-Orks army.

Is my army here above vaild vs IG?
My idea was to give him a headache with so many targets, but all his big templates/turn were like an aspirin for him!

Maybe I should find something to get him from the rear, like Kommandos or Stormboys?
What about a Big Mek with SAG to shoot his Russ down from distance?
Or maybe a unit of MANZ+Big Boss, as a template-magnet, while my Boyz runs forward?

Thanks for your help!

Don't be ashamed guard can counter orks really well. However for suggestions if you are running your lootas as 1 squad of 15 don't split them into 3 squads of 5 this allows you to shoot at more than one target per turn with them and makes your opponent split their fire to deal with them all. If you are foot slogging it's going to be rough might want some truks or battle wagons to close the gap faster. A truk of meganobs can either do allot of damage or draw allot of fire. I love the dakka jet but not sure on taking it at 1k points kinda iffy on it I can see it being really good or I can see it eating points guess it depends who goes first and gets to shoot at the enemy flyer.

Question: what happens if I ram a Bastion with a deffrolla?

MANZ on a truk sounds good. But at 1k I can only use 3-4 of them.

its a difficult one. IG do the shooting really well. My advice is to take some looters. Go for his LR and the flakk with these.

You just enjoyed the counter to the Ork foot horde.......a shooty gun line. Get em fast, and hit em hard if you plan on facing gun lines, thats our counter to them. Id run my trukks with planks and PK the piss out of the tanks. Also, your relying on the buggies TL rokkits to do something that Orks have serious problems with, and thats hitting accurately. Those buggies would have a better chance of popping tanks with bigshootas then the rokkits in most cases just from simple numbers.

Also I dont know too much about IG lists, but that just seems like he was a little over the 1k point limit with all that crap on the table. You might want to check lists.

 brainscan wrote:
its a difficult one. IG do the shooting really well. My advice is to take some looters. Go for his LR and the flakk with these.

Looted vehicle or Lootaz?

the guard list looks about 1k to me. The only thing that looks expensive is the two russ'.

And yeah, those templates can be a pain. I don't see people use the Hellhound much, but never enjoyed the experiences I've had against them.

And you went against 2 heavy tanks and a bastion. In 1K a lot or armies would have trouble with that much heavy armor.

 RedizDead wrote:
Question: what happens if I ram a Bastion with a deffrolla

I'm quoting myself :p
Need an answer please!

Bastion is just an immobile vehicle with some special rules and it's own damage chart.

So it would still take the Deffrolla hits against AV14. And it does cause a lot of wounds to go to whatever is inside.

 RedizDead wrote:

 RedizDead wrote:
Question: what happens if I ram a Bastion with a deffrolla

I'm quoting myself :p
Need an answer please!

You can't ram buildings pg 86 under ram


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Place a large piece of blocking terrain right next to his bastion, then position all the objectives out of its line of site. Then you can safely camp behind it.

I think deff koptas would work better than the buggies, they have twin linked rokkits and can outflank ending up right next to the tanks to get side and rear shots against them.

I like the dakkajet in my 1k list. However I haven't had to deal with a bastion yet. I would either ignore the bastion or put a terrain piece blocking it. I believe fortification placement goes on the board first so you can then use the biggest piece of terrain to plop down next to it and block los.

Twin linked big shoota deffkoptas outflanking to get rear armor are a much better investment then the twin linked rokkits.

As for the template spam and the russes, I've found giving them a medium level threat headed right for them draws fire for a few turns. Some bikers work well or a mob of 20 boyz and a pk. Just rush up a table edge soaking fire and hope you can get a pk assault in.

Well, the only thing that's REALLY threatening in that list is the hellhound. Should be easy enough to pick off. When you bring your dakkajet on, just don't bring it on the table in range or LOS of the interceptor (or behind some ruins to snag a bit of cover).

After that, it's probably his big mob of infantry, but that's what you have all those lootas and boyz for.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 RedizDead wrote:

 RedizDead wrote:
Question: what happens if I ram a Bastion with a deffrolla

I'm quoting myself :p
Need an answer please!

You can't ram buildings pg 86 under ram


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Place a large piece of blocking terrain right next to his bastion, then position all the objectives out of its line of site. Then you can safely camp behind it.

I think deff koptas would work better than the buggies, they have twin linked rokkits and can outflank ending up right next to the tanks to get side and rear shots against them.

Buildings aint a bastion (fortification) but the only mentiond thing against buildings is the +dmg from speed armor etc.. the Deff rollah on the other hand CAN tank shock D6 str 10 hits a bastion be it owned by a player(armor 14) or not(armor12)

I haven't read the rule quoted, but I would tend to agree that fortifications can be rammed. It seems odd buildings cannot. Again I haven't read the rule yet.
DrG

It may have something to do with how the Bastion wouldn't be removed from the board, but treated as Impassible terrain.

You drive onto it (deff rollah) still the 2d6 no need for all those other inches and the bastions have their own dmg table from
one to seven.

If the building(tank or what ever you are hitting do not explode you stop at the wreck. or at the tank/bastion if it didnt get the said explode result.
Only thing that it continues on is on ground units(walkers to) if they fail to stop you. ¨UNLESS¨ the said thing you rammed/tankshocked get the explode result.

pg 85. It can not tank shock a building as tank shocks are against enemy units. Fortifications are not units. Nor are fortifications enemy models.

It can not ram a building as pg 86 specifically says you can not do it.

and pg 116 lists bastions as a medium building.

Sorry it can't be done.

That's odd considering i have the same rulebook(english) wich says it does not take the said dmg from distance moved etc... BUT we are talking about a deffrollah not the ramm itself.. it is afterall counted as a attack for the Battlewagon.

phatonic wrote:
That's odd considering i have the same rulebook(english) wich says it does not take the said dmg from distance moved etc... BUT we are talking about a deffrollah not the ramm itself.. it is afterall counted as a attack for the Battlewagon.

not quite, on pg 55 of the ork dex "any tank shock made by a battle wagon with a deff rolla causes d6 ...."

to use the deff rolla you need to start with a tank shock, and a ram is a type of tank shock.

sirlynchmob wrote:

phatonic wrote:
That's odd considering i have the same rulebook(english) wich says it does not take the said dmg from distance moved etc... BUT we are talking about a deffrollah not the ramm itself.. it is afterall counted as a attack for the Battlewagon.

not quite, on pg 55 of the ork dex "any tank shock made by a battle wagon with a deff rolla causes d6 ...."

to use the deff rolla you need to start with a tank shock, and a ram is a type of tank shock.

Mhm odd.. as people at my place have been doing this at tournaments.. have it been FAQ'd then perhaps?

Edit: and also.. common sense... it would be possible for a deff rollah to take down a bastion.. when you can crush things as monoliths etc (everything that's armor 14) looks like GW might made a sloppy one here :/

from faq: Page 55 – Battlewagons, Deff Rolla.
Change the third sentence to read “Any Tank Shock or Ram
made by a Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla causes D6 Strength 10
hits on the target unit.”

I agree, I'd love to ram those things with a battle wagon.

It hasn't been faq'd to work against buildings though.

Well, a trick I've learned with my IG is to shoot the quadgun if you're worried about it. It has a statline, toughness value, wounds, and a save, and if chaos players can assault their own to kill their own dudes, then you can shoot at it as well. My store has been doing this a lot and it seems to make sense with everybody. If we're reading a rule wrong though please let me know.

I've killed a couple just by spamming autocannons/lascannons at them, so maybe a good thing for you to do turn one would be to take your lootas and focus down the quadgun. It's only T7 with a +3 save, it'll probably die in a single volley of a 15 loota unit.

As for his list, it sounds a little wierd. 125 for bastion+quadgun, 300 for the russes, 130 for hellhound, 130 for valk/vendetta comes up to685pts. Add a CCS with MoO bare minimum 80pts, bringing total to 765. Did he only bring a single platoon? He may well have misunderstood that a platoon is only a single troop choice, and must take another. Although to be fair he might've had a barebones vet squad, but he would be cutting the points close at that point.

As for the orky side of things, maybe drop the buggies? Since they're your only armor on the field, they're going to get murdered by even a halfway decent IG list. I would either take more boyz, or take deffkoptaz, as they require more anti infantry weapons to kill, and would synergize a bit better with the boyz.

 Wingeds wrote:
I like the dakkajet in my 1k list. However I haven't had to deal with a bastion yet. I would either ignore the bastion or put a terrain piece blocking it. I believe fortification placement goes on the board first so you can then use the biggest piece of terrain to plop down next to it and block los.

Twin linked big shoota deffkoptas outflanking to get rear armor are a much better investment then the twin linked rokkits.

As for the template spam and the russes, I've found giving them a medium level threat headed right for them draws fire for a few turns. Some bikers work well or a mob of 20 boyz and a pk. Just rush up a table edge soaking fire and hope you can get a pk assault in.

The thing is, TL rokkits usually hit (least for me) 70% of the time. On AV10-11, they almost always pen if i hit. Without turboboosting i dont see how a player worth his salt would let you get to the rear of his vehicles though, and turboboosting still gives him a turn to think about how to stop them. 4+ cover isnt that big when you got a lot of flak flying at you.

IG are the only race ive played against that i havent even had a remote chance at winning with. Even my deffkoptas moving 48 inches on turn 1 (12scout, 12 move, 24 turbo) they dont get to do anything before taken out because of the mass amounts of pi plates i face. Ordnance doesnt get rid of jink or smoke covers since theres no center of it, but like i said before when theres a LOT of flak flying at you 4+ wont help unless youre lucky. I just dont see how you can face that without a deepstrike of some sort or infiltrate. If you find a trick out i'd love to know.

And i agree that i think he took morethan 1000pts worth. The bastion alone is 125, and i know russes arent cheap either.

Ordnance doesn't remove cover saves, only barrage fire can do that. That seems to be a common misunderstanding when I go up against people with my russes. Everybody thinks they ignore cover now for some odd reason, but they dont. Our ARTILLERY does that, but only if the shot lands where you would get no save (for example, behind your aegis defense line in amongst your men) Area terrain (and more importantly KFF's) still give you cover. Only the Collossus ignores cover outright, and it is rarely taken due to it's fairly limited role of killing the hell out of marines.

Another thing I will add from seeing it on both sides of the issue, but hunting any sort of real tank with rokkit koptas is an excercise in frustration. On the ork point of view, you're rarely going to blow the tank up, and that's IF you get a pen, IF you even hit the darn thing (and you only have a slightly higher than 50-50 odds of doing so) Against a leman russ, with a side armor of 13, the odds of you killing it with rokkit koptas is laughably small. As an IG player, I rarely care about rokkit koptas entering the side arc of a tank, because there's such low odds of them doing anything.

If you're really wanting to kill those russes, you need to get up close and punch them to death. Deff koptas with a buzzsaw moving flatout to hide behind a building turn one can accomplish this, then next turn assault the nearest tank. (don't even bother with rokkits, give them big shootas, which will be able to do something useful) A biker boss could also do this, but he's more vulnerable than a squad of deff koptas. You could also try a warbiker mob, or if you were really crazy, Zagstrukk (although he's obscenely expensive)

Other than those options, there's not that much orks can do to kill a leman russ at range, aside from getting side shots with lootas and praying for 6's.

Vineheart01 wrote:


The thing is, TL rokkits usually hit (least for me) 70% of the time. On AV10-11, they almost always pen if i hit. Without turboboosting i dont see how a player worth his salt would let you get to the rear of his vehicles though, and turboboosting still gives him a turn to think about how to stop them. 4+ cover isnt that big when you got a lot of flak flying at you.

IG are the only race ive played against that i havent even had a remote chance at winning with. Even my deffkoptas moving 48 inches on turn 1 (12scout, 12 move, 24 turbo) they dont get to do anything before taken out because of the mass amounts of pi plates i face. Ordnance doesnt get rid of jink or smoke covers since theres no center of it, but like i said before when theres a LOT of flak flying at you 4+ wont help unless youre lucky. I just dont see how you can face that without a deepstrike of some sort or infiltrate. If you find a trick out i'd love to know.

And i agree that i think he took morethan 1000pts worth. The bastion alone is 125, and i know russes arent cheap either.

I guess it depends on your experience and success with the rokkits. The last time I used my 6 deffkoptas to outflank an IG gun line with 3 russes I don't believe they scored a single glance with the twin linked rokkits. The next time I ran 3 with just big shootas and tore up rear armor of a Chimera. The Dice God is a cruel mistress. I'll give the rokkits some more tries though. The IG player is the only player in my group that I regularly have problems against, but he also regularly tailors his list to smash orks. Curse you Master of Ordnance and demo charges.

TL rokkits are at that magic spot where youll either hit more then half, or miss all of them. I personally dont like that kind of results. Bigshootas. Bigshootas all the way

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ordnance doesn't remove cover saves, only barrage fire can do that. That seems to be a common misunderstanding when I go up against people with my russes. Everybody thinks they ignore cover now for some odd reason, but they dont. Our ARTILLERY does that, but only if the shot lands where you would get no save (for example, behind your aegis defense line in amongst your men) Area terrain (and more importantly KFF's) still give you cover. Only the Collossus ignores cover outright, and it is rarely taken due to it's fairly limited role of killing the hell out of marines.

Another thing I will add from seeing it on both sides of the issue, but hunting any sort of real tank with rokkit koptas is an excercise in frustration. On the ork point of view, you're rarely going to blow the tank up, and that's IF you get a pen, IF you even hit the darn thing (and you only have a slightly higher than 50-50 odds of doing so) Against a leman russ, with a side armor of 13, the odds of you killing it with rokkit koptas is laughably small. As an IG player, I rarely care about rokkit koptas entering the side arc of a tank, because there's such low odds of them doing anything.

If you're really wanting to kill those russes, you need to get up close and punch them to death. Deff koptas with a buzzsaw moving flatout to hide behind a building turn one can accomplish this, then next turn assault the nearest tank. (don't even bother with rokkits, give them big shootas, which will be able to do something useful) A biker boss could also do this, but he's more vulnerable than a squad of deff koptas. You could also try a warbiker mob, or if you were really crazy, Zagstrukk (although he's obscenely expensive)

Other than those options, there's not that much orks can do to kill a leman russ at range, aside from getting side shots with lootas and praying for 6's.

But deffkoptas are only Str6 with a buzzsaw, as its just a fancy powerklaw giving 2x strength. Thats 7 on the charge, with 3 attacks on the charge. Better than bigshootas, more attacks than rokkits, but its kinda low for high AV tanks (or am i forgetting russes have crappy rear armor here..lol)

Russes have a pitiful rear armor of av 10, and even the "assault" tanks only have av 11 on the rear. A buzzsaw equipped kopta will glance it on a 3 and outright pen on a 4 (remember, you have furious charge, for S 7) Since you never get stuck in with a vehicle, you can keep charging it every turn, if they survive of course. Plus, the big shootas are S5 too, so they can knock a hullpoint or two off if you can get behind a tank, or murder a chimera in its side arc. The points you save on rokkits on your koptas will give you the points you need for the buzzsaws, so you wont need to change much.

Also, next time ask your opponent what his two troop choices are. If he only has a single platoon, he has an illegal list. Your opponent has so many toys it seems a wee bit suspicious. A platoon is only a single troop choice, no matter how much he gets for it. He can buy 5 infantry squads, a PCS, and 3 HWS's, but it doesn't matter. He needs either two platoons, or a platoon and a vet squad, etc.

Ok thank you for such huge amount of information!!!

I think I'll go for a truk/BW rush army, with Lootas and Kopters.

I am just worried about one more thing: if he uses (and he will) a Valkyrie/Vendetta, and let's assume he will kill my Lootas pretty easily with his MoO or any template, I won't be able to hunt his flyer down. My only chance will be rear shots with my shootas...

But I think I can take the risk. What do you think?

And back to the Lootas... Prediction: Turn 1. 8 Lootas. 1 template. 3 deads. Ld test. Fail. 120pts "gone in 60 seconds" :p

 RedizDead wrote:


I am just worried about one more thing: if he uses (and he will) a Valkyrie/Vendetta, and let's assume he will kill my Lootas pretty easily with his MoO or any template, I won't be able to hunt his flyer down. My only chance will be rear shots with my shootas...

The vendetta won't do much to the list I think you're running. 3 lascannons can only go so far when you have no high AV stuff. You could potentially ignore it.

Keep the Lootas in cover, it's going to be hard to kill them if they have a 4+ ruins cover save, and even if you have to go to ground, snap shooting the following turn, you can just spend that turn snap shooting against the flier.

The chances of him killing anything with a MoO is pretty slim. It always scatters, even when a hit is rolled. If an arrow is rolled it scatters 3d6. He may be using it wrong if it did a lot of damage. MoO is pretty crappy. Along with potential points and FOC shenanigans I think your opponent may be cheating (albeit unintentionally).