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I'm playing in a three way game with Gray Knights and Tyranids. I'm playing Chaos. I was wondering if I should spend some points on a Vindicator or a Havoc squad with Heavy Bolters. It was suggested to me that Heavy Bolters work well against Gray Knights because they fire so many rounds. This is the first time I'll ever play against Gray Knights and Tyranids. Any suggestions?

I would think the Vindicator would be better against the GK, and the Havocs better against the Tyranids, but I would give the edge to the Vindicator.
BUT, the Vindicator suffers from one glaring weakness: as soon as you put it on the table, your opponent's primary mission will be Kill The Vindicator. Nobody likes to have a S10 AP2 pieplate throw at them.

This is true! However for relatively few points (even with a siege shield) its a good target. Its way more cost effective than something like a Defiler. I'm going to sound like an idiot here, but how do Tyranids move? Are they like beasts and book it across the field? Is that why a vindicator wouldn't be very effective against them?

It depends on who you back it up with and who you are more concered for. Heavy bolters are great against tyranids. My experience with HB against termies has not been great. But Vindi loves to eat up both armies.

So I guess I would ask what kind of Grey knight army? What kind of Tyranid army? What else do you know you want to bring to the table?

I've never played a game like this before. It's a Chaos Renegade (1850) and my Iron Warriors (1850) vs a Tyranid army (2000) and a Gray Knight army (2250). The Renegades are deploying on the west side of the field (where there are two bastions), I'm deploying in the middle (where there are a few ruins), the Tyranids are deploying on the east side of the field and the Gray Knights are deep striking all of their forces. The chaos forces have to survive until the end of the game with as much as we can, the GK get victory points for destroying Chaos HQs, and the 'Nids get points for killing anything. I'm planning on pulling my forces back to the bastions as quickly as possible so the GK don't just tear them up. Also this puts the 'Nids in a position where they can be fighting the GK or they have to come to the bastion all the way across the board. My list so far is

Chaos Lord in Termie armor
-The Black Mace
-GoM, Melta Bombs, Sigil of Corruption, MoT, and VotLW
4 Termies
-Lightning Claws, VotLW, GoM for champ
Land Raider with Dozer Blade and Dirge Caster
Helbrute with Plasma Cannon
10 CSM
-Autocannon, Champ has Power Sword and Melta Bombs
10 CSM
-Lascannon, Champ has Power Maul, Rhino with Dozer
5 Havocs
-Missile Launchers with Flakk (I was told to expect fliers from the GK) and a Rhino with a Dozer
Forgefiend wHades
Vindicator with siege shield
5 CSM
-Bolt Pistols and CCW, Champ has Power Maul and GoM, VotLW, MoS

That is what I've been brainstorming. Its not finished yet. I had another list because I was told it was Apoc, but then the host informed me that he did not want it getting complicated.
So I plan on getting as much of my force back to the Renegades in the west because he has artillery that can hopefully pick off those crossing the board. And I think the GK would have a field day punchasizing a unit of renegades with very little consequence.

The problem with 3 ways, is that the person in the middle generally gets crushed very quickly. Then the last two fight it out. If you go for a longer range list, you'll have a better chance of winning as long as you're not in the middle.

heavy bolters is good against grey knights becuase of the range. you want to kill knights on distance. Vindicator is great to use to swipe possible paladins away but it needs to get so close to the force to do so. I think the risk will be that you only make it work as a suicide unit, one shot --> dead.

HB can stand 36 inches away and force fails on those 2+ saves

both work wonders on tyranids

SlyasR wrote:
heavy bolters is good against grey knights

Good? Don't you mean slightly better than shooting them with massed bolters? If anything plasma cannons would be better to negate those 2+ saves, with a similar range as the HB whilst also wounding the TMCs on 3+ rather than the HB 5+ and taking away those scary monster's saves. Or MLs, while they still get 3+ at least it doubles them out. The MLs would be great against tyranids too, frag for the little guys, Krak for the warriors and flakk to ground the flyrants.

As a gk player, I get scared when I see something across the board with a ability to shoot AP1 large blasts, vindicators, even demolishers, executioners forgefiends etc.

I would go for the vindicator, even against nids it should be quite good, better than heavy bolters imo

I forgot to mention that I have a helbrute with a plasma cannon. I wanted to bring my 3 Oblits but Chaos is not allowed to deep strike for this game because "we're being hunted by the GK." And I am pretty sure they'd get eaten up since they can't get to the rally point in the west. I have a feeling the MLs will be pretty handy. I don't have a forgefiend with ectoplasma cannons either. I worry that they will glance it to death.

A better option would be to take havocs with autocannon, not sure what the points are compared to heavy bolters, but much more versatile weapon.

The Autocannons are the same cost as heavy bolters, but they're the same AP, they are longer range but you sacrifice one shot, 2v3. So would havocs with autocannons be better than a Vindicator? Or did you mean the MLs?

if you are going to be the piggy-in-the-middle, and you did sugegst that you were going to "withdraw" to your allies side of the table then there are several ways of doing it...

you either sand-bag the enemy and sit in the ruins as your list would suggest, or you mech up and get your ally to cover you while you withdraw...

remember the size of the board is the big factor here, the nids might have trouble getting to you if you re-deploy using a mech army, however there is the entity of the deepstriking GKs to consider. if he goes for the renegades then vindicators migh be the tool of choice since you can keep on moving and balsting him at the same time (though the 24" range can be a hinderance..) though havocks give you a longer range weapon choice.

if your worried about GK stormravens (since your ally is guard (assuming he is using the guard codex...) you know what is coming next - vendettas ) perhaps, if you have one take a heldrake with a hades autocannon, its a risk but it can target 2 units a turn so you might get lucky, or go for the baleflamer, but lose the AA option...

personally i'd go for 2 vindicators, as havocks are pretty much static if you want to get the most out of them, or consider oblits

I would suggest the vindicator for the sheer fact that it seems you need the high mobility.

Never take just one Vindicator, ever. You either go full monty with them or don't take them at all. Because otherwise you won't be able to fire that sweet S10 AP2 pieplate.

As a long time vindicator user, there are really only 2 ways to field them: 1 as a purely distraction unit (this one will usually never get to fire), or 3 to get in your opponent's face. There really isn't any other option.

Here's my take on this;

If you have a lord, I would suggest taking him out of termi armor, put him on a bike and making him a nurgle biker. T6 and he can't be one shot aside from instant death or simply being removed from play.

Take some plague marines and sand bag alike a mofo imo if you're job is to stay alive..

A Vindicator is nice, however if you can get a Quadgun + Dline with some havocs, in my experience, they outshine even 2 vinds.. They become hard to shoot, hard to get to and have an absurd amount of shots. Usually taking 4 las cannons on the Havocs and having your bare champ man the quad gun is the best way to run.

And although you may think a hellbrute is nice to have wit ha plasma cannon, you're almost always better off taking a defiler in its stead, even if you have to sacrifice 2 of them. The defiler is a beast of a machine and will almost always be a game changer if you field them properly..

I'm a fan of the vindicator. It has a 30 inch range with the movement and can deal a lot of damage depending on scatter. The av 13 front shout help protect it against most small arms. The psy cannons are rending though and a psy rifle dread could spell trouble if your only fielding one. On the other side the heavy bolters can force your opponent to do something no marine player wants to do..... Take a lot of saves

herpguy wrote:
As a long time vindicator user, there are really only 2 ways to field them: 1 as a purely distraction unit (this one will usually never get to fire), or 3 to get in your opponent's face. There really isn't any other option.

This, I've never seen just *one* Vindicator accomplish much of anything of note outside of very small games, mainly because everyone's "OHGODKILLIT" button gets pressed the moment they see one. But three? Unless your foe is stuffed to the gills with long ranged anti-tank, if you have three of them, at least one of them will get to the other side and it WILL ruin your opponent's day.

well, the GK player is going to crap his pants at the vindicator, but the tyranid player will just point and laugh at you. The heavy bolters are more consistent here.

That said, I'd find the points to take better guns. Monstrous creatures of both armies are going to fear lascannons or plasma or melta weapons more than heavy bolters, and terminators don't like those kinds of weapons either.

I'd find points for better havoc guns, or consider getting a predator instead.

Tyranids will usually have something the large blast can put a solid dent in.

Ailaros wrote:well, the GK player is going to crap his pants at the vindicator, but the tyranid player will just point and laugh at you. The heavy bolters are more consistent here.

That said, I'd find the points to take better guns. Monstrous creatures of both armies are going to fear lascannons or plasma or melta weapons more than heavy bolters, and terminators don't like those kinds of weapons either.

I'd find points for better havoc guns, or consider getting a predator instead.

I agree. Putting heavy bolters on havocs will just make them a rather costly exercise at rolling dice. Lascannons are scary to everyone, HB aren't.

Leth wrote:Tyranids will usually have something the large blast can put a solid dent in.

Except that using str:10 ap:2 on gants seems rather wasteful.