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Warwalkers - they put out a lot of dakkadakka but their rather weak with hull points so they've lost some of their value...that inherent outflank ability is risky to pull off. Generally, it is better to use them like a support weapon: hidden in cover & supported. So, why not use support weapons instead? Their cheaper costing n points, have a variety of weapon types, and are tougher at 3 wounds (puttig one guardian in front) t7, 3+ armor & easy to get cove (easier than WW).

War Walkers are most definitely better, especially with Scatter Lasers, but that's how I assume everyone runs them anyway. They put out far more fire, so are more reliable (especially when Guided or Prescienced), and are much more versatile.

Vibro Cannons can do one glancing hit to a vehicle per turn, regardless of how many are in the battery, and aren't worth much against vehicles. D-Cannons are cool, but only 24" range. The other one, I can't even remember what it's called, isn't impressive.

Scatter Laser WWs, on the other hand, are a serious threat to infantry and light vehicles. They have a 36" range so they can threaten a good amount of the table. An ADL gives them cover, and with Farseer support they are ungodly killing machines.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
War Walkers are most definitely better, especially with Scatter Lasers, but that's how I assume everyone runs them anyway. They put out far more fire, so are more reliable (especially when Guided or Prescienced), and are much more versatile.

Vibro Cannons can do one glancing hit to a vehicle per turn, regardless of how many are in the battery, and aren't worth much against vehicles. D-Cannons are cool, but only 24" range. The other one, I can't even remember what it's called, isn't impressive.

Scatter Laser WWs, on the other hand, are a serious threat to infantry and light vehicles. They have a 36" range so they can threaten a good amount of the table. An ADL gives them cover, and with Farseer support they are ungodly killing machines.

The one you are thinking of is 90 points for a three strong artillery squad that has a guess range of four feet and fires S6 3" blasts. Considering those can cause more hits that the scatter walkers, which average 12 hits with their BS3...

The answer should be Warwalkers with a big ****** on it.

Guided, with cover, Warwalkers are great. If you bring WW's and leave them out in the open unguided they are pretty mediocre units.

Support Weapons got a great boost with 2W's T7 and a 3+. Personally I'm a fan of the Support Weapons. 90 points for three behind an Aegis is great value in the 6ed Eldar repertoire.

Warwalkers win IF
A)You have cover for them
B)You are guiding them

Otherwise I give a small nod to the Support Weapons.

warpspider89 wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
War Walkers are most definitely better, especially with Scatter Lasers, but that's how I assume everyone runs them anyway. They put out far more fire, so are more reliable (especially when Guided or Prescienced), and are much more versatile.

Vibro Cannons can do one glancing hit to a vehicle per turn, regardless of how many are in the battery, and aren't worth much against vehicles. D-Cannons are cool, but only 24" range. The other one, I can't even remember what it's called, isn't impressive.

Scatter Laser WWs, on the other hand, are a serious threat to infantry and light vehicles. They have a 36" range so they can threaten a good amount of the table. An ADL gives them cover, and with Farseer support they are ungodly killing machines.

The one you are thinking of is 90 points for a three strong artillery squad that has a guess range of four feet and fires S6 3" blasts. Considering those can cause more hits that the scatter walkers, which average 12 hits with their BS3...

Blasts are never as reliable as straight shots. Plus, say you're shooting at a small elite unit, say a few Termies. The blasts will, unless you roll direct hits each time and they are packed close enough to get them all under a template, not get as many hits. Scatter Laser WWs do great here by killing with volume of fire, since even termies fail saves when they have to take 15 of them. WWs also do much better against vehicles, as the blasts can only get as many hits as there are templates. The Walkers are much more versatile.

You can fortune war walkers that have cover as well. It makes them quite nasty.

War walkers v shadow weavers.

Cost: double scatter laser walkers are double the cost of a weaver, so when comparing firepower it's 1 scatter laser to 1 platform.

Firepower

Against light vehicles walkers have 4 times more shots. If the target is behind an aegis the platform ignores the 4+ cover and the walker still has twice the firepower.

Against infantry it's 4 shots to 1 blast. If the blast averages 3 hits 50% of the time the platform has 75% of the walkers dakka. If the target is light infantry and barrage ignore an aegis 4+ cover or 2+ gtg goes away and it's 5+/6+ armor saves. Platform wins with light infantry behind a wall, walker wins every other anti infantry scenario.

Platform also gets the perk of pinning tests and barrage sniping of squad leaders and special weapons.

All of that being said walkers are a better deal when it comes to Dakka.

Next topic durability.

2 platforms and 4 guardians comes to 8 wounds at t7 verses a pair of av10 hp.

In the open it takes 32 auto cannon hits to drop the platforms, or 40 behind an aegis. It would also take 32 plasma hits to drop the 2 platforms if they are in 4+ cover.

In the open it takes 3 auto cannon or plasma hits to drop 1 war walker purely from stripping hull points, or 6 behind an aegis. Note this is completely ignoring the effects of penetrating hits.

In short the support platforms are so durable for their point cost that it's not worth shooting at them, basic target priority dictates shoot something else. War walkers are glass cannons destined to attract lots of enemy fire. Once the units leave the vacuum of math hammer the support platforms should surpass expectations, while war walkers often suffer a quick ignoble death.

There is a lot of talk about psychic synergy. Walker squads do great with guide/prescience because they are 180 point glass cannons. Fortune while behind an aegis can give them durability, but the unwritten cost is the farseer's unit is now vulnerable to shooting because they don't have guide. War walkers and farseers are bullet magnets, and now that farseers cannot cast from inside a transport protecting a high value target at the cost of another high value target doesn't make sense, unless the farseer joins a squad of support weapon platforms that is behind an aegis and next to a war walker squad.

warpspider89 wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
War Walkers are most definitely better, especially with Scatter Lasers, but that's how I assume everyone runs them anyway. They put out far more fire, so are more reliable (especially when Guided or Prescienced), and are much more versatile.

Vibro Cannons can do one glancing hit to a vehicle per turn, regardless of how many are in the battery, and aren't worth much against vehicles. D-Cannons are cool, but only 24" range. The other one, I can't even remember what it's called, isn't impressive.

Scatter Laser WWs, on the other hand, are a serious threat to infantry and light vehicles. They have a 36" range so they can threaten a good amount of the table. An ADL gives them cover, and with Farseer support they are ungodly killing machines.

The one you are thinking of is 90 points for a three strong artillery squad that has a guess range of four feet and fires S6 3" blasts. Considering those can cause more hits that the scatter walkers, which average 12 hits with their BS3...

Small blasts are not even remotely effective as an anti horde weapon. They work for anti MEQ/TEQ to some degree (i.e on Plasma Cannons) because players naturally tend to bunch them up more, but horde players tend to make better use of the coherency rules. Against anyone who knows what they are doing a small blast template will hit 2 maybe 3 models even without accounting for a bad scatter causing a complete miss. If Shadow Weavers were large blasts (like the vehicle mounted version) then they might be worth bringing, but as it is they are worse than Vibro Cannons (which are pretty terrible).

Imo the only Support Weapon worth considering is the D Cannon. Yes it has short range, but they are very powerful tools for controlling the board. A D Cannon battery more or less instantly removes any vehicle in the game that wanders into its range (that isn't a Land Raider or Monolith), 3 small blasts that only need to just clip to do damage is very nice. They also do very well against elite units, anything that is caught in a bunched up formation against them doesn't live very long. Since they are relatively durable (T7 3+ saves, most likely with cover) they tend to create a nice bubble around them that people try and stay out of (at least for a turn or two before they deal with the platforms).

I find War Walkers with cannons a MUCH better investment than scatter lasers. Outflank 3 WW with cannons for 120 points for cheap anti-AV10/11 or the ability to wipe a devi easily. Scatter lasers are simply too expensive for 1 more shot at bs3.

Support platforms are only useful with Shadow Weavers. They are much better at dealing with inf, but are relegated to only dealing with inf really. Where war walkers rip vehicles apart, Shadow weavers might get a lucky pen off a barrage hit on av10 side armor. War walkers are more versatile by a lot, but shadow weavers will do more damage over the game simply because they survive forever. Also gets rid of those pesky guardsmen behind ADL doing their standard "get up get down" tricks.

Weavers only need 6 hits to be on par with a squad of walkers that are double their point cost. If they force a horde to engage in maximum dispersion it's great news for guardian jet bikes. Move so all tl scat are within 12", unload, wounds carry out 24" into the horde because of the 1 cannon, wounds go front to back, horde is now just under 15" away with the 1st rank dead or about 17.5" away if the 2nd rank dies. Scoot back 2d6 in assault rinse and repeat. There are definite disadvantages to max dispersion.

weavers need 12 hits, not 6. 24 shots from war walkers at bs3. If guided, that ratio changes a lot.

zephoid wrote:
weavers need 12 hits, not 6. 24 shots from war walkers at bs3. If guided, that ratio changes a lot.

6 - in his calculations were based on a point for output ration.

warpspider89 wrote:

zephoid wrote:
weavers need 12 hits, not 6. 24 shots from war walkers at bs3. If guided, that ratio changes a lot.

6 - in his calculations were based on a point for output ration.

Yep it was based of scatter walkers being double the cost of reavers. On subjective experience many players may be having is their 90 point unit of reavers doesn't do as much damage as their 180 point unit of war walkers, they forget the cost, and get frustrated at the reavers for not performing as well as a unit twice their cost.

Vibro Cannons do D6 glancing hit to a vehicle per turn and don't need to be Guided and don't nedd LOS. 30pts each so about 10 land raiders dead a game

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Vibro Cannons can do one glancing hit to a vehicle per turn, regardless of how many are in the battery, and aren't worth much against vehicles.

This +1

Although I must admit, I love the idea of fighting 10 land raiders with only vibro cannons

Edit: If you take them as separate heavy support choices (rather than 3 squads), you can do three glances a turn. In 2000pts, you could take six separate Vibro cannons and do up to six glances (as in 6 units of 1)

Good luck if anyone tries that, because you've now got no room for wraithlords/war walkers/fire prisms/falcons.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Vibro Cannons can do one glancing hit to a vehicle per turn, regardless of how many are in the battery, and aren't worth much against vehicles.

This +1

Although I must admit, I love the idea of fighting 10 land raiders with only vibro cannons

Edit: If you take them as separate heavy support choices (rather than 3 squads), you can do three glances a turn. In 2000pts, you could take six separate Vibro cannons and do up to six glances (as in 6 units of 1)

Good luck if anyone tries that, because you've now got no room for wraithlords/war walkers/fire prisms/falcons.

I want to see someone do that, with the other points they could take two troop choice squads of wraithguard, two jetbike squads, and 2x fortuneseer. Then when the guard get locked in combat, they can indiscriminately blast units in the fight! Most likely wounding units hitting the guard on 4+ and the guard on 6+. LOL! Sonic boom of madness!

That is genius