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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/21 04:14:22
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Deadly Dire Avenger
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Hello all,
First ever post (please don't las blaster me for not posting in the Intro section!). I last played 40K (hence the "new" in the subject) way, way, way, back from 1993ish - 1997 - yes well over 15 years ago. Over Christmas I got a gander at the 6th Edition rules while over at a relatives house, he's been playing since I started and hasn't stopped. Along with having the largest collection of 40K and Fantasy I've ever seen or heard of, I perused his Eldar collection and saw the changes to my precious Eldar of old. This made me spend 3 hours digging out my old mini's some of which I don't remember buying - and after many an evil stare from the better half and stares of awe from the youngins, I'm leaning on returning to the game. So far, I've begun stripping most of my old minis and have picked up more paint than I've ever owned before, and have decided to at least start painting again with a new colour scheme and hopefully better skill.
From the posts on here and from what I can get my hands on (mainly the latest rules update coupled with locating an old copy of the Eldar "latest" edition Codex (2006?), my once fast moving - decent survivability army (which I'll list below the Eldar) has now gone to mediocre and expensive units! :( With know one I know playing 40K locally and one other semi-local person playing Fantasy - any suggestions on "easing" back into the game? I've contemplated getting Dark Vengeance set and playing the Dark Angels from there (with some SM and IG I got from somewhere too), while seeing if the guy I know that plays Fantasy to play Chaos. Would that be a decent way to start as it hopefully removes the high (re)learning factor for the Eldar, kick off a second army for me and maybe entice the Fantasy player to get into 40K at 0 initial cost to him  If it's best to maybe start with Eldar again - is there anything I should add to my collection below?
Oldskool Eldar: (Anyone have a top of head estimate on total points range?)
1x Avatar
1x Farseer
1x Eldrad (shhhhhh don't tell my wife as I just picked him up on Ebay)
2x Warlocks
Pheonix Lords - Maugan Ra, Jain Zar, Asurmen, Karandras, Fuegan
2x Dreadnaughts (Wraithlords now I guess)
1x Warwalker
3 x Anti-Grav platforms wtih 6 fodder - I mean Guardians
3 x Jetbikes
2 x Vyper bikes
1 x Falcon tank
1x Large Resin (Forge World or Armorcast?) Tank - a Tempest I think
5x Striking Scorps + exarch
5x Fire Dragons + exarch
5x Swooping Hawks + exarch
6x Dark Reapers + 2 exarchs (with web of skulls)
5x Banshees + exarch
5x Wraithguard
4x Warp Spiders + Exarch
35x Guardians (+6 from the platforms)
6x Rangers/scouts/pathfinders?
11x Harlequins
1x Death Jester (with a Brightlance I think - did they come with Las?)
5x Harlequin Jet Bikes
Space Marine / Imperial Guard
9x Terminators + 1 Sargeant/Standard Bearer - some are old old old Space Hulk plastics I think
5x Regular marines (3 bolters, a flamer, a bearer/sarg with banner)
10x Catachan? Jungle Fighters ( missile launcher in the group)
1x Super cool looking Vindicare Assassin
*these any good to supplement the DA if I get the starter box?
Attaching some pics of my new paint scheme - feedback and please remember I haven't painted in over 17 years.....
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Starting "anew" - 5000pts - oldskool models
Slowly but surely - almost 2500pts?
Small but taking their vitamins - 2500ish?
daemons roar - 3000ish ?
Oh fliers - how thou hath ruined the game |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/21 04:39:47
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Welcome to Dakka, and welcome back to the hobby!
Eldar are in a bit of a tough spot at the moment, as their last codex update was back in 4th edition, so their unit rules and point costs are not fully in step with the current rules and paradigm. Of course, they're legal to play (be sure to get copies of the main rulebook FAQ and Eldar codex FAQ; the link is in my signature), but, for example, our transport vehicles are now notably overcosted and much more fragile than they used to be.
You may want to start a couple of threads in the sub-forums dedicated to your specific types of questions, too, to get more focused responses and answers. For example, if you want people to propose some potential army lists, you could post a call for help building a list in the Army Lists forum, with that list of models. And you could post those pics of the Warlock in the Painting & Modeling forum if you want help and feedback with him.
I like your Warlock; that kind of black color will always look a lot nicer and more finished once the base is painted and sanded/flocked in a contrasting, earthy color. Either traditional mixed brown ground with green sand, or perhaps a sandy tan or slate grey.
If I were building a base army list with your models I'd probably start with Eldrad and the Troops- Jetbikes, Pathfinders (upgraded Rangers) and Guardian Defenders with heavy weapons make decent, inexpensive scoring units, and you need scoring units to win games. Wraithlords are pretty good, offering some fire support and counter-assault in case things get close to your fragile scoring units. Warlocks can be very good to lead Guardians. One excellent combination is to give one the Embolden power, which allows the unit he's attached to to re-roll any Leadership tests. This applies not only to Morale and Pinning tests from enemy shooting, but also to Eldrad (or another Farseer)'s psychic tests to cast powers, as long as he's attached to the squad.
Vypers are okay fire support- scatter lasers and shuriken cannons are usually the most cost-effective weapon options. War Walkers are better- dual Scatter Lasers is a great loadout, although you probably want to field a squadron of two or three, not just one, when you can.
Fire Dragons are one of the best Aspects. If you do want to field a grav tank, the Falcon can be a pretty good method of delivery.
Dark Reapers can be pretty good, especially deployed in cover, near Eldrad to cast powers on them to make them more accurate and durable.
Warp Spiders are also pretty good.
A big squad of Harlequins with a Farseer attached to cast Fortune on them is pretty fun and good, as long as you keep it moving up through cover.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 04:40:48
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/21 06:17:22
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Ten guardsmen isnt really much of anything to get an army started. I'd probably keep them in storage for now. Starting up an IG army takes quite a bit of models, so unless you really like the idea of playing Guard, I'd wait.
That said, if you do decide to go in on them, make sure you get metal catachans. The plastic ones are hideous and will not match your metal ones at all. The plastic Catachan command box on the other hand is awesome and absolutely worth it, and would be a good purchase. A few metal squads and a couple command boxes would make a cool catachan force for example. Then just add a couple tanks of whichever type fills your weaknesses (leman russ variants, chimeras for troops to ride in, artillery, etc.) would finish it off.
Honestly though, if i were you I'd stick with eldar or the dark angels, as you actually have enough there to be useable from the start.
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 01:00:09
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Deadly Dire Avenger
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Sorry, to clarify: I'm not looking for an army list in particular and have no intention of playing IG.
I was looking more for general viability of "decent" play learning the rules with what I have Eldar wise, or starting to learn anew with DA or even the Chaos in Dark Vengeance - with some supplement of my SM / IG I already have.
Thank you both tho for your input and your insight!
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Starting "anew" - 5000pts - oldskool models
Slowly but surely - almost 2500pts?
Small but taking their vitamins - 2500ish?
daemons roar - 3000ish ?
Oh fliers - how thou hath ruined the game |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 01:09:43
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ehldar wrote:
I was looking more for general viability of "decent" play learning the rules with what I have Eldar wise,
You can certainly learn the rules, but don't expect to ever win. Eldar are past the bottom of the barrel right now.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 01:15:21
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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DarknessEternal wrote:Ehldar wrote: I was looking more for general viability of "decent" play learning the rules with what I have Eldar wise,
You can certainly learn the rules, but don't expect to ever win. Eldar are past the bottom of the barrel right now.
That seems a bit harsh. Unless he's playing against die hard tourney players every single week he should be fine. We have several Eldar players in my area and they do alright. A common theme they say though is that Eldar tanks are crap right now though. I wouldn't really know if they're right or not, but they all seem to be focusing on infantry builds, using that Eldrad guy, and taking as many long range weapons as possible. It literally looks like they're trying to play IG without tanks or vendettas, which is really wierd.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/22 01:25:35
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 09:43:10
Subject: Re:"New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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World-Weary Pathfinder
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Welcome Ehldar! I was in the same position as you about 9 months ago, having collected Eldar about 10 years back, stopped then came back to the game and decided to pick up where I left off. Don't get disheartened by all of this talk about Eldar being "past the bottom of the barrel", you're not a tournament grade player and probably won't be playing many either (for the better, the game needs less WAAC donkey-caves IMO), which is the realm in which those tier lists rate the armies in that order.
I lost a lot when I started playing but as I learned the game and found things that work I've been doing better and better. The thing to remember is that Eldar are an advanced army, you can't just throw a list together and rely on 3+ saves, av13+ or other tricks to stay alive, you have to plan carefully and think about what you do. If you don't, you'll end up back here opening yet another thread about how Eldar suck, but if you do it will be a very rewarding experience.
TL;DR don't believe the hype, Eldar are still worth playing
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Ulthwé Eldar 2.5k points and growing! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 10:47:02
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Executing Exarch
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I reckon you've got about 4000ish point (before upgrades)
I'd max the wraithguard to 10 (they count as troops then)
There are many threads on here about how hard they can be to kill.
I demand pics of the harlequin jetbikes! I haven't seen any in years (and a pic of the big resin tank)
Put another gun on your wraithlords - they are allowed two heavy weapons now - although it has to be a different gun to the original, otherwise it just counts as twin linked.
Get a shadow seer for the harlequins - it gives them a 4+ cover save in the open.
Fire Prisms in a pair work very well at making people take models off the board.
Look at forgeworld
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar
I can vouch for the wraithseer and the phoenix bomber both being very good units.
The only bad news I have is about the vindicare - he an awesome character with a lot of abilities... But now he's an elites choice for the grey knights. You can't just take one anymore :(.
To use him in a game (legally) you'd need to buy an inquisitor and a GK troops choice. (I've gone for an inquisitor coteaz 'counts as' and a henchmen warband as troops)
The upside is, he can now ally with your eldar as well as the marines you've got
And don't believe the doom sayers! we still have teeth!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/22 11:21:30
Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 11:33:39
Subject: Re:"New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Eldar seem to get a new Codex second half of this year. So every advice given now can be obsolete in 8 months or so.
Anyway, the quality of sculpts in the current miniature range is quite high, e.g. new Walkers.
Forge World also has a book dedicated to Eldar:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-VOLUME-ELEVEN-THE-DOOM-OF-MYMEARA.html
... and a whole range of miniatures, vehicles and bits including an Avatar, Titan and super-heavy tanks:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar
So even if you don't want to buy the current Codex, there is a lot to look at before the next Codex is released.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 14:53:17
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Well I'd wait for the new codex coming up this year. If Kroothawk says so, it will happen.
At the moment, Eldar is not the most competitive army out there.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 15:16:12
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Stealthy Grot Snipa
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They can still be solid if not spectacular, you could take them to tourneys and while you wouldn't be at the top table you wouldn't have your ass handed to you if you go about it in the right way....war walkers are still vicious and footdar (infantry lists) work very well now as do wraithzilla (wraith troops, and heavy support) and if your allowing FW wraithseers with D-Cannons are brutal
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Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
Chaos Dwarfs 8/5/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 02:52:41
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Deadly Dire Avenger
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So I went out and bought DV - YAY! Opening it I noticed it was missing a sprue (only 3) - BOO! Contacted GW - even though the guy was quite abrupt - they're sending out a replacement! YAY! My relative, is mailing me the limited edition mini from the the LE DV set (he bought, separated and sold 4!).
PredaKhaine wrote:I reckon you've got about 4000ish point (before upgrades).....
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I demand pics of the harlequin jetbikes! I haven't seen any in years (and a pic of the big resin tank)
<snip>
And don't believe the doom sayers! we still have teeth!
Here you go for pics...I can take hi-res pics with proper lighting this weekend if you want, as these where taken with my mobile phone. Excuse the box of chocolates in the background as I needed to prop it up on something, and the paint job is well over 15 years old on both models. The badly painted bike has a Shuriken Canon * I think * and the white primed one has dual catapults.....and yes they're all metal. The tempest is about 12" (30cm) by 6" (15cm) - eyeballed. I just need to figure out how to safely strip the paint off that resin.....
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Starting "anew" - 5000pts - oldskool models
Slowly but surely - almost 2500pts?
Small but taking their vitamins - 2500ish?
daemons roar - 3000ish ?
Oh fliers - how thou hath ruined the game |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 08:42:28
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Executing Exarch
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Nice
I always liked the harlequin wraithlord too. Big freaky clown face wraithlord...
People have mentioned simple green as a solution to remove paint - I don't know if that would work on resin, but it might be worth looking into. It's been mentioned on here before.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276572.page
The tempest looks cool - I've not seen one before.I might have to google armorcast. I've not seen any rules for it either - It might be worth looking into whether it compares with the scorpion in size and using the scorpion rules if it does.
Thanks for the pics - that was a proper nostagia trip then
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/24 08:42:54
Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 16:39:28
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
Hatfield, PA
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MrMoustaffa wrote:A common theme they say though is that Eldar tanks are crap right now though. I wouldn't really know if they're right or not, but they all seem to be focusing on infantry builds, using that Eldrad guy, and taking as many long range weapons as possible.
it isn't that Eldar tanks are crap right now, it is just that they aren't as uber invulnerable and impossible to drop as they used to be and eldar players just haven't gotten over it yet. They are no more crap than any other army's vehicles are these days. Vehicles in general took a hit on survivability with the addition of the hull points. Used to be I could rely on one of my regular opponents to hit every turn with 3 rail guns and roll 1s or 2s on the damage table every time. So against daemon possessed walkers in 5th edition my Plague Hulk had no problems, thanks to my opponents horrible damage rolls, of walking across the entire table under fire and crushing the hammerhead and the 2 broadsides that had been shooting at him the whole battle. Now 4 hits and it is gone, no matter what gets rolled on the damage table. That is a big difference, but also gets rid of a lot of frustration with people who often roll as my friend does. It was depressing to him to fire all those rail guns every game and have them pretty much accomplish absolutely nothing at all. The first time it happened it was kind of amusing...the 2nd less so and then I just felt bad every time it continued to happen. Ultimately those units become a complete waste of points for him in most games due to his bad rolling and railguns should be popping enemy armor like nobody's business.
In the past some eldar vehicles, like the wave serpent, were SOOOO hard to bring down, even with concentrated fire or concentrated melee attacks that it just wasn't fun to see them on the table as their holofields kept pushing the damage rolls to the glance table instead. It just got to be not much fun. Now eldar have been brought back down to earth, just like everyone else and the players don't like it.
Skriker
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CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
 and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 16:53:02
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
Green Bay
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Those Harlequin jetbikes are worth alot now, you could make a bundle and use it to fund a good chunk of your new army.
Eldar combined with Tau or Dark Eldar can kick some ass. Eldar alone are a bit mediocre, but not terrible. With a bit of practice, they can be competitive, and quite fun.
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rigeld2 wrote: Now go ahead and take that out of context to make me look like a fool. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 17:47:40
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Executing Exarch
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Skriker wrote:
In the past some eldar vehicles, like the wave serpent, were SOOOO hard to bring down, even with concentrated fire or concentrated melee attacks that it just wasn't fun to see them on the table as their holofields kept pushing the damage rolls to the glance table instead. It just got to be not much fun. Now eldar have been brought back down to earth, just like everyone else and the players don't like it.
Skriker
If you're going to mock the afflicted at least get it right
Wave serpents couldn't take holofields in 4th or 5th ed. I know because we're still on the same 4th ed codex. If you had holofield trouble on a wave serpent you got cheated.
Wave serpents still get the same field that they used to which takes any hit above str 8 to only count as str 8. This became pointless years ago in 5th when people started taking a lot of missile launchers - fire 4 krak missiles at a wave serpent, it'll blow up and our troops inside lose half the men to the ensuing explosion.
Holo-fields were nice on falcons and prisms, but 3 glancing hits now and they're done. At most in 5th, you could only ever have fought 3 grav tanks with them in one game. Did you fight a lot against eldar?
Just for comparison...
Marines get razorbacks for 35pts. Our transports are all 100pts+. They survive about the same length of time.
Marines also get an av14 dedicated / HS transport, with assault ramps and can fill it with men that'll still be there and able to smash eldar face in even after it's dead.
Edit: Wave serpents have NEVER been able to take holofields. Got home and checked 2nd and 3rd edition codex's as well.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/01/24 19:08:39
Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 18:03:34
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Screaming Shining Spear
NeoGliwice III
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Skriker wrote:it isn't that Eldar tanks are crap right now, it is just that they aren't as uber invulnerable and impossible to drop as they used to be and eldar players just haven't gotten over it yet. They are no more crap than any other army's vehicles are these days.
First of all
Sure, "they are no more crap". They have the same amount of HPs, are just as easily hit in CC, lower/same BS, overpriced heavy weapons, only one ramp, NO fire points.
As a bonus, lately, Eldar cannot use powers from inside. The thing they could do for a very long time. So no more support for the support-heavy themed army. That's like designing chimera without fire points.
So sure, they are not crappier than others. The thing is they are also twice or three times more expensive. Let's not even try to buy a lance (which is inferior to lascannon). You can get almost 4 rhinos for the price.
So yeah, they are crappy for their current point cost. And believe you me, it's not only Eldar players that see the WS as too expensive.
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Good things are good,.. so it's good
Keep our city clean.
Report your death to the Department of Expiration |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 19:27:19
Subject: "New" to 40K...What happened to the shiny space elves?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Mediocre isn't bad. People use the word "mediocre" as if it is something bad. Mediocre is what Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels are. Eldar currently occupy the performance range which would be, broadly speaking, called "bad". Feel free to append whichever adverb you feel most appropriate to "bad" but I have never seen anyone come up with an argument that holds water for Eldar to be anything but in the current edition with the current codex.
Don't let that get you down. Restarting army is a time consuming process. Learning the rules as well. Starting Eldar is probably a pretty decent timing at the moment, if only you won't have any idea how the next codex will be focused. If it's anything like the current new ones it'll have one or two rather bad units, mostly balanced units and one unit or model that clearly didn't get enough playtesting or got playtesters whom just didn't understand basic rules such as "a flyer with a AP3 or better template can kill any squad of space marines anywhere on the table per turn" (hinthintnudgenudge).
Having an army "ready" for the new codex can only be a good thing.
P.S. I never made an intro post, either, but I'll happily direct the las blaster in your direction if you think you deserve it
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I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. |
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