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I've been really getting hammered lately when playing my Craftworld Eldar Army now that all my buddies have flyers in their armies.

For a change of scenery I started playing my Dark Angels army, with their new codex and all...

Strangely though, I am not faring any better. There are a lot of Chaos Space Marines players in my area, and all of them are running AT LEAST one Helldrake in their 1500 point games. I am almost at a loss for how to deal with them since they have such amazing rules. Has anyone else run into this? basically behing at a loss for taking down enemy flyers? As Dark Angels, there is not a single unit available to me with Skyfire, and I strugle to shoot down normal enemy flyers (Necrons, Guard, Etc) But the Helldrake is seriously giving me a challenge.

Any ideas?

The trick to heldrakes is to position your tropes so that if he flames them, he has to expose his AV 10 ass to you. then hit him with everything you got, even boltguns could do the trick.

En Excelis wrote:
As Dark Angels, there is not a single unit available to me with Skyfire

Might want to buy the new codex then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The trick to heldrakes is to position your tropes so that if he flames them, he has to expose his AV 10 ass to you. then hit him with everything you got, even boltguns could do the trick.

This is easier said than done now that GW (in a moment of sheer idiocy) FAQed the flamer to be a turret weapon with a 360* arc.

One Scout Squad with Camo cloaks

Aegis Defense Line with Quad gun.

Use the BS4 sergeant to shoot the Quad Gun. You now have a TL BS4 Quad gun w/ Interceptor and Skyfire and a 3+ cover save on a scoring backfield unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

En Excelis wrote:
As Dark Angels, there is not a single unit available to me with Skyfire

Might want to buy the new codex then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The trick to heldrakes is to position your tropes so that if he flames them, he has to expose his AV 10 ass to you. then hit him with everything you got, even boltguns could do the trick.

This is easier said than done now that GW (in a moment of sheer idiocy) FAQed the flamer to be a turret weapon with a 360* arc.

Yes, lets bitch and moan about the ONE good unit CSM gets

it was good before the FAQ and I have no problem with CSM, they have a very balanced codex so stop your bitching or just stop playing CSM

Woh guys the b word is a no no word

Barrywise wrote:
it was good before the FAQ and I have no problem with CSM, they have a very balanced codex so stop your bitching or just stop playing CSM

Except it now has a flyer, a FLYER no less, that yells at MEQs in their face, "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID! AP3 FLAMER FOR THE WIN!!!!!" While most would say, "get the ADL + Quad Gun/Storm Talon"; I have the money for none of these guys (aka i have none). This renders my army absolutely useless, as the dragon spits fire at the units that can actually kill it and asks for more. This is quite infuriating for me, as a relatively new gamer.

 Peregrine wrote:

En Excelis wrote:
As Dark Angels, there is not a single unit available to me with Skyfire

Might want to buy the new codex then.

Care to elaborate? I already have the new codex... have I missed something? What DA (or for that matter any Space Marine unit in general has Skyfire?)

 ace101 wrote:
I have the money for none of these guys (aka i have none). This renders my army absolutely useless, as the dragon spits fire at the units that can actually kill it and asks for more. This is quite infuriating for me, as a relatively new gamer.

This is the entire point, sir. The whole point of Warhammer is to get you to say "well I've got all these models, but I really need some ZOOM! Wham! Wow! I can't kill these flier things and I guess I need to spend $100 more dollars to do that or else I can't really play..."

That's probably why they took away 4+ environment cover saves and added the ADL. It was an easy way to tax the player base for ~ $35. Fliers, same thing. Notice how they're all $50-75 a pop.

My advice, go search secondhand (e.g. Ebay or buy it off your friends) for a cheaper alternative. Here's an option: consider buying the bitz on a bitz reseller online for Missile Launchers and then use the Flakk weapon upgrade which is entirely cosmetic to combat fliers. That means you're racking up the points per model while still using Tactical squads, plus bitz tend to be reasonably priced on bitz resellers.

Good luck. Sorry you fell for the scam that is Warhammer, but hey, that's why they call it "profit motive."

En Excelis wrote:


Care to elaborate? I already have the new codex... have I missed something? What DA (or for that matter any Space Marine unit in general has Skyfire?)

Ravenwing Dark Talon, plus Flakk Missiles. See Flakk Missiles in the big rulebook for stats. They can be taken on Devastator Missile Launchers, see the Devastator Squad entry in the Dark Angels Codex.

En Excelis wrote:
Care to elaborate? I already have the new codex... have I missed something? What DA (or for that matter any Space Marine unit in general has Skyfire?)

Nephilim and every unit that can take flak missiles.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Yes, lets bitch and moan about the ONE good unit CSM gets

Sorry, but it was a stupid ruling. Ignore the question of whether it is overpowered or not, the flamer on the model is a hull-mounted weapon. Giving it a turret mount makes no sense at all since the weapon isn't a turret.

Edit: Keep it polite. -Mannahnin

 Peregrine wrote:

En Excelis wrote:
Care to elaborate? I already have the new codex... have I missed something? What DA (or for that matter any Space Marine unit in general has Skyfire?)

Nephilim and every unit that can take flak missiles.

Citation? Sorry to be a pest, but if I missed something like this than I'll be kicking myself.

Nephilim Jetfighters do not have Skyfire listed in the DA codex, and come equiped only with Blacksword Missiles, which are not flak. I don't see the option to switch those out anywhere. Errata perhaps?

En Excelis wrote:
Nephilim Jetfighters do not have Skyfire listed in the DA codex, and come equiped only with Blacksword Missiles, which are not flak. I don't see the option to switch those out anywhere. Errata perhaps?

Main rulebook, page 81. All flyers can choose to have skyfire at the beginning of the shooting phase.

 Peregrine wrote:

En Excelis wrote:
Nephilim Jetfighters do not have Skyfire listed in the DA codex, and come equiped only with Blacksword Missiles, which are not flak. I don't see the option to switch those out anywhere. Errata perhaps?

Main rulebook, page 81. All flyers can choose to have skyfire at the beginning of the shooting phase.

You just changed my world.... I love you

Please be aware that Nephilim Jetfighters, although they are fliers and experience all the benefits that entails, they do not actually excel as an "air superiority fighter," and so take that claim in your Codex with a grain of salt.

I still think that Scouts + ADL/Quadgun is a better option and so is a Dev squad with Flakk Missiles, or maybe you can get some Allies with some even better AA (Imperial Codexes have access to Battle Brothers with almost every other Imperial Codex - Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves - you have access to all of these), especially when the Dark Angel flier is $75, and you said money is an issue.

Space Marine Devestator and tactical squads both can fire 48" range Flakk missiles for an additional 25 pts per model. I'm thinking of adding a 4 missile devestator AA squad with rhino to act as a rolling bunker.

I think you can only fire one heavy weapon out of a Rhino. In which case you could just as easily get a 5 man Tactical squad with a single Flakk Missile and it would do the same thing.

Edit: Reference is page 78 in little rulebook, section "Transports" subsection "Fire points."

The Rhino's entry say's two models can fire out of the top hatch. In both the 5th edition Space Marine Codex and the new 6th edition Dark Angels.

I see. Well then it would only be cost effective to get 2 Flakk Missiles if you wanted to put them in a Rhino.

Albeit, with 48" range there's not much purpose to putting them in a transport anyway.

Ally in Guard. Command squad, veteran squad, vendetta , and 2 Hydra squad. If you are worried about Turkeys, well, Vendettas aren't.

The Rhino was a secondary thought to give them a rolling bunker. I like the thought of four missiles in a squad so if they are not in a transport you have a great chance to take out one flyer per turn.

 TedNugent wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
I have the money for none of these guys (aka i have none). This renders my army absolutely useless, as the dragon spits fire at the units that can actually kill it and asks for more. This is quite infuriating for me, as a relatively new gamer.

This is the entire point, sir. The whole point of Warhammer is to get you to say "well I've got all these models, but I really need some ZOOM! Wham! Wow! I can't kill these flier things and I guess I need to spend $100 more dollars to do that or else I can't really play..."

That's probably why they took away 4+ environment cover saves and added the ADL. It was an easy way to tax the player base for ~ $35. Fliers, same thing. Notice how they're all $50-75 a pop.

My advice, go search secondhand (e.g. Ebay or buy it off your friends) for a cheaper alternative. Here's an option: consider buying the bitz on a bitz reseller online for Missile Launchers and then use the Flakk weapon upgrade which is entirely cosmetic to combat fliers. That means you're racking up the points per model while still using Tactical squads, plus bitz tend to be reasonably priced on bitz resellers.

Good luck. Sorry you fell for the scam that is Warhammer, but hey, that's why they call it "profit motive."

En Excelis wrote:


Care to elaborate? I already have the new codex... have I missed something? What DA (or for that matter any Space Marine unit in general has Skyfire?)

Ravenwing Dark Talon, plus Flakk Missiles. See Flakk Missiles in the big rulebook for stats. They can be taken on Devastator Missile Launchers, see the Devastator Squad entry in the Dark Angels Codex.

Guess what, Space Marines haven't been FAQed the Flakk missiles to this point. I was hoping GW would give vanilla marines the flakk missile upgrade, but apparently GW is distancing themselves from any Ward spawned Army, sucks to be C:SM now.

6th Edition rule book pg 415. The entry for Missile Launcher has Flakk missiles in the weapon profile. Don't complain about there being no errata for the Space marine Codex, when they do you may have to pay the extra 10 pts the Dark angel players do.

Wow alot of anger on here lol, but anyway, your best bet op is notto take a nephilim to kill the helldrake, nephilims are actually bad at killing enemy flyers, with exception to the dark eldar one and the dakka jet, but that is only if you manage to shoot first, I would go with the suggestion of scouts and a adl

Yeah really the best AA that Dark angels have is flakk missiles. I personally run 4 across a devastator squad, leaving lascannons to my tactical squads, which give me anti tank with a nice S9 AP2.

If you're really worried you can always lay prescience on the devastators.

I find a dreadnaught with 2x TL autocannon often glances a flyer for me nicely

ADL with quad gun actually appears to be a nice option. I am considering building one.

Yes, I too don't have money for another GW kit, so I will be making it using spare cardboard, plastic sprues and bitz.

So a helldrake costs 170 and gets an autokill on about 8 marines.... Minimum 120 points dead a turn.
I can take a flakk missile in a tac squad and judging from the damage possibility, I better take a 10-man squad. I am going to hit 2/3 of the time and actually penetrate 1/6 of the time and glance 1/6 of the time. So 1 in 9 flakk missiles is going to penetrate with 2 in 9 putting a hull point on it.
A quad gun costs 100 and then better have a 10-man tac squad with flakk missile... So 265 points... 88% hit and the same 11% pen and 11% attack.
Finally we have the nephilim... 88% chance of hitting with a TL lascannon and then a 50% chance of a pen with an increased chance of an immobilize result and then 2 missiles--- with a 22% chance of affecting if they hit. Finally the worthless TL heavy bolter.

If I am worried about one Helldrake, perhaps a Nephilim, Quad Gun and an anti-air Tac squad and it will be neutralized. Not bad that a DA player has to spend 400+ points to neutralize a 170 point flyer. That same flyer can kill 120 points of marines each turn until it is destroyed.

GW did a great job creating an awesome 170 point MEQ killer.
GW did a piss poor job of creating a lackluster 170 point anti-flyer and quad gun and flakk missiles are quite lackluster at killing AV 12 flyers.

Yes, GWs business practices strike again! But if you know they have a heldrake, why dont you just find cover? (inside buildings, in the middle of area terrain, ect) They can't kill what they can't see, and then your anti air units, which are either cheap scouts or AV 2+ terminators, can kill them. This is probably bad advice, since i dont play space marines though.

 ace101 wrote:

Barrywise wrote:
it was good before the FAQ and I have no problem with CSM, they have a very balanced codex so stop your bitching or just stop playing CSM

Except it now has a flyer, a FLYER no less, that yells at MEQs in their face, "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID! AP3 FLAMER FOR THE WIN!!!!!" While most would say, "get the ADL + Quad Gun/Storm Talon"; I have the money for none of these guys (aka i have none). This renders my army absolutely useless, as the dragon spits fire at the units that can actually kill it and asks for more. This is quite infuriating for me, as a relatively new gamer.

The easiest way around this is to ask your friends to not field them against you since its absolutely no fun. Most people who actually want to enjoy games will accept that and use different models. It's fair to want to have fun in your games. (This applies specifically to the issue of not being able to buy models to counter flyers)

 Kirasu wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

Barrywise wrote:
it was good before the FAQ and I have no problem with CSM, they have a very balanced codex so stop your bitching or just stop playing CSM

Except it now has a flyer, a FLYER no less, that yells at MEQs in their face, "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID! AP3 FLAMER FOR THE WIN!!!!!" While most would say, "get the ADL + Quad Gun/Storm Talon"; I have the money for none of these guys (aka i have none). This renders my army absolutely useless, as the dragon spits fire at the units that can actually kill it and asks for more. This is quite infuriating for me, as a relatively new gamer.

The easiest way around this is to ask your friends to not field them against you since its absolutely no fun. Most people who actually want to enjoy games will accept that and use different models. It's fair to want to have fun in your games. (This applies specifically to the issue of not being able to buy models to counter flyers)

It's a lot more fair to his friends, for him to buck up, and adapt, rather than have them adjust their lists for him, because he can't handle it.