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Made in gb
Snord






After reading a troll thread about how gw rips of blizzard, it got me actually thinking about something he said.

When did tolkien's pathetic, slimy orcs become the orc/ks of warhammer? did GW come up with the original idea to make orc/ks hulking bruts of immense strength, or was that copied from someone else?

Just a passing curiosity I thought I'd ask you all


Von Chogg

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 Von Chogg wrote:
After reading a troll thread about how gw rips of blizzard, it got me actually thinking about something he said.

When did tolkien's pathetic, slimy orcs become the orc/ks of warhammer? did GW come up with the original idea to make orc/ks hulking bruts of immense strength, or was that copied from someone else?


Like most things, it was too copied from Tolkien. Middle-Earth Orcs came in several varieties, most common were the small orcs, which were often called Goblins. Sauron later bred larger Orcs, which were called Uruks, these could be almost as tall as men and very strong, however texts seem to imply that these large Orcs were pretty rare. Saruman took it further and developed human-Orc hybrids (who also called themselves Uruk), these Isengard orcs were taller than regular Orcs and more tolerant to daylight. Some of these hybrids were called half-orcs.

Spelling "Ork" was also used by Tolkien (just like "Eldar").

However, Tolkien's Orcs were never green.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/01/30 14:18:31


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Made in gb
Snord






I know where the concept etc came from, (being a LOTR fan myself), i just wondered if games-workshop were the first to make orcs the hulking brutes they are in more fantasy settings these days

LunaHound wrote:Eldrad was responsible for 911 *disclaimer, because Eldrad is known to be a dick, making dick moves that takes eons to fruit.

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WHFB released 1983. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_(setting)
WH40K released 1987. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000

WarCraft, Orcs and Humans released 1994. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft:_Orcs_%26_Humans

WH40K 2nd ed released 1993. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000#Second_Edition_.281993.29

Pics of Rogue Trader orks Circa 1987 > > > http://www.google.com/search?q=rogue+trader+ork&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ED0JUZ-ZKcnQhAeJgIHYBg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1544&bih=719

For me. It looks like GW wins

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/30 15:35:41


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Made in gb
Snord






Awesome, exactly what I wanted to know! Cheers vim


LunaHound wrote:Eldrad was responsible for 911 *disclaimer, because Eldrad is known to be a dick, making dick moves that takes eons to fruit.

tremere47 wrote:
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 Von Chogg wrote:
I know where the concept etc came from, (being a LOTR fan myself), i just wondered if games-workshop were the first to make orcs the hulking brutes they are in more fantasy settings these days


LotR had "hulking brutes" Orcs, they just weren't so common, usually they were Orc warlords or their bodyguards or similar elite units.

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You may want to check the monter manials for Dungeons and Dragons 1st edition. That was the late 70's and they used hulking orcs as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep 1977 D&D monster manual has them as bestial bullies often living under ground.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/30 17:43:05


 
   
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 Crawdadr wrote:
You may want to check the monter manials for Dungeons and Dragons 1st edition. That was the late 70's and they used hulking orcs as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep 1977 D&D monster manual has them as bestial bullies often living under ground.


I actually looked in to this earlier. in the 1st edition they were described as being larger than normal goblins. They were depicted as being about human size and shape, and were sometimes shown as slimy and lithe. So not quite the bulking masses that are 40k and warcraft.

In later editions they did start to get bigger, i think Ad&d in the 80s had them as stronger and much more hulking and brutish. Also, Games Workshop had direct ties to TSR and released the dungeons and dragons kits in the UK, while TSR released them in the US

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Orc was a term used for the mythical ogre and Tolkien himself said he took it from Beowulf in which it talks about ores as orcs. GW orcs have more in common with ogres than Tolkien orcs though there are obvious influences for example the relationship between Orcs and Goblins is a Tolkien invention.
   
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/31 01:22:26


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GW rips off blizzard? Last time i checked they ripped off GW. Starcraft is the most notable. Of course, both companies equally ripped off the book Starship Troopers as well as the Alien movies. Also, fantasy ripping off Tolkien is old news, everyone rips off Tolkien, even the early 1st edition of D&D had Hobbits instead of halflings.

I think its much more of how you use what youve ripped off compared to the fact that you did it. Orks and Orcs are very very different. Orcs in Warcraft are tough brutal warriors who have a very feral and tribal nature about them, and are also very grim, but essentially honorable in their ways. GW Orks are more often than not tough and brutal warriors, but they serve as the comic relief in a grimdark setting, as well as having that cool homemade/ cobbled together feel of their gear and equipment. Also they have cockney accent which is awesome. If i would say anything GW Orks, especially 40k Orks have a better defined culture, or Kulture, in that they have a very defined life cycle, attitude, and complex system of how they operate. IMO the Warcraft Orc seems to change far too often to keep track of its developement. First they are bloodthirsty savages, then they have this noble streak, now they occupy this weird niche between the two.

Point being, Orks are great, Orcs arent half bad, but they need to better defined.

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yeah supposedly GW and Blizzard were working together to make Warcraft and then GW backed out (derp) and Blizzard finished it off, then they started to make Starcraft together and GW backed out again (double derp) which is why they are so similar but Blizzard had to make some minor changes at the last minute so that they weren't breaking any laws.

I'll try to find the website that I read that on, no promises
   
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Well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

More or less.

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nobody ever actually checks to see which came out first.

Funny story, Starcraft was originally suppose to be Warhammer 40k video game, but they scratched it and blizzard just reworded everything. I believe there was some legal issues, but obviously nothing happened.

People always assume the first they come across came first, which is usually wrong. Go talk to any League of Legends fan and they'll claim DOTA ripped them off lol (despite DOTA being more than twice as old).

Also the idea of orks being big green brutes isnt original even to blizzard. Tolkien is the earliest i know of mentioning orcs period, but they werent green. However EVERY other story involving fantasy had big green orcs in it that were usually just slightly smaller but more intelligent trolls.
The only first for orcs i know of was Blizzard making them NOT a bad guy. In fact, if you go through the Warcraft lore, after the Orcs were freed from their bloodlust they were short tempered, but very friendly and honorable. Meanwhile the humans were the ones that refused to let old wounds heal and started fights/wars with the Horde on sight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/31 07:48:42


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generalchaos34 wrote:
IMO the Warcraft Orc seems to change far too often to keep track of its developement. First they are bloodthirsty savages, then they have this noble streak, now they occupy this weird niche between the two.

Point being, Orks are great, Orcs arent half bad, but they need to better defined.

They're well-enough defined, if you actually consider their whole story and its twists and turns. They were a peaceful race, then corrupted by demons to be berserking bloodthirsty warriors. They then got rid of the curse, and with Thrall's leadership became more like their original selves. But their warlike way of life during the curse had still left its mark, and with the Alliance harassing them they couldn't live in peace anyway. And then eventually Garrosh came to power, revving up those with bloodthirst still left in them into full gear, steering the Orcs more like their demonic era again. So first it was demons influencing the Orcs, then it was Thrall, and then finally Garrosh.

In any case, I've heard about the Warcraft->WHFB/Starcraft->40k original plans (though haven't read any "official sources" about it), and if true GW must've pulled their hair out when those franchises really took off and became hugely popular. I must admit I've never played Starcraft myself, but I did play Warcraft. Mostly I and III. I have played but not finished II and Frozen Throne (need to get that sorted one of these days). In any case, the WHFB and Warcraft universes ended up quite different, but both are interesting. I must admit I know relatively little about WHFB for now, though. Mostly I just played a bit of Warhammer Online, and read the Dwarf Codex fluff

Regardless of who, when and where came up with the "big, brawny orcs/orks" first, they're cool. WH and Warcraft Orks are very different aside from the visual similarities, but both very cool in their own way. Though WH/40k Orks aren't really all that big if you conside the Boyz, though obviously they can become quite large in the end (Nobz, Warbosses).

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 Vineheart01 wrote:
nobody ever actually checks to see which came out first.

Funny story, Starcraft was originally suppose to be Warhammer 40k video game, but they scratched it and blizzard just reworded everything. I believe there was some legal issues, but obviously nothing happened.


Um....cloooose.

Actually, the original Warcraft game was going to be a Warhammer Fantasy game. But the deal fell through and they decided to use the baseline game engine for Warcraft Orcs and Humans.

Kotaku has a great article about this that features an interview with the Blizzard designer:

http://kotaku.com/5929157/the-making-of-warcraft-part-1

"Allen Adham hoped to obtain a license to the Warhammer universe to try to increase sales by brand recognition. Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal."

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Also the idea of orks being big green brutes isnt original even to blizzard. Tolkien is the earliest i know of mentioning orcs period, but they werent green. However EVERY other story involving fantasy had big green orcs in it that were usually just slightly smaller but more intelligent trolls.
The only first for orcs i know of was Blizzard making them NOT a bad guy. In fact, if you go through the Warcraft lore, after the Orcs were freed from their bloodlust they were short tempered, but very friendly and honorable. Meanwhile the humans were the ones that refused to let old wounds heal and started fights/wars with the Horde on sight.


Tolkein also had several kinds of orcs - the smaller kind that lives in mountains and caves, and a massive and powerful breed of orc bred by Saruman called the Uruk-Hai.

See the Uruk models on the GW site:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat980022a&prodId=prod1500491a

"Where ordinary Orcs are crook-limbed and timid, the Uruk-hai are strong, muscular, upright warriors of greater skill and courage."


Uruk


Orcs

And of course, all of this goes back to the grandpappy of fantasy, Tolkein. Uruks are featured in Fellowship of the Ring, the first of the LOTR trilogy. An Uruk captain kills Boromir and in fact is defeated by Aragorn in single combat. They're depicted as being very strong, they pick up the hobbits like rucksacks and swing them over their backs before going on long marches of dozens of miles. There is a great description of their endurance and speed on the march.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk-hai

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
 
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