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Well ... barely I think. I played BA the other night, who always play aggressive and forward. I lured him across with 2 Basilisks, and brought in a platoon of 35 and 2 LRBTs behind him.

I also brought 2 Vendettas. Luckily for me, we played Big Guns Never tire, and I roasted 4 heavy units with the Vendettas (and 1 more heavy with a freak basilisk shot that missed his troops).

The game turned quickly into a slap fight once we ran out of really good weapons (both of us). The platoon survived JUST long enough to contest an objective for the win.

So, at the end I still had my 2 jets and 2 tanks, and 2 little inf units, I think the game was mine, but I'm wondering - has anyone had more experience with this kind of strategy? Is it viable, or did I just get lucky?

My gunlines always ALWAYS get torched somehow, usually fast meltas, deep strike, fliers ... seems like everyone has a can opener, and I'm the can. Seriously - I'm done playing a gunline. I know a guy who plays with amazing vehicle spam and wins, but that's not really the game I want to play.

Anyway, what are your thoughts regarding this strat? I'm going to try again, maybe with Storm Troopers, I'll be sure to post.

-Obvious

That's a lot of points spent on special characters. I've never run both of them together, but I did run Al'Rahem a few times. The most recent time he didn't work out so well and came in on the wrong side. He definitely benefits from an astropath (which i did not take for some reason). That and I split my squads wrong. I should have had my larger squad outflank with Al'Rahem instead of sitting back to camp my base. It was a kill teams game, and the no-man's land between my opponent and I was barren so I did not move my giant blob up like I should have.
Despite my poor deployment, I think outflanking with Al'Rahem is still a pretty strong strategy. I don't think he necessarily needs Creed to outflank other things to work though. Vendettas should be good enough. I'd rather have my russes on turn 1 so they can shoot early. Though I can see the benefits of outflanking a Demolisher as you'll be able to get it within a safe range to start firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
His range of orders aren't to bad either. "Bring it down" is nice to have when outflanking as is "Fire on my target" (I think he has that last one.)

I've never used both in conjunction with one another (they play to ENTIRELY different strategies) but I have had success with Al'Rahem in the past. He's a bunch of fun, and "Like the Wind" is an AMAZINGLY good order.

Infact, the only reason I ever find myself using SWS is when I have them in an outflanking AL'Rahem platoon. I rarely bring any more than three PIS, though. FRFSRF on the blob, 'Like the Wind' on himself.

I don't understand what you're gaining from this combo. The biggest benefit seemed to be that they were in reserve, not that they outflanked. You can go into reserve to preserve your forces for free - special characters are not required.

As for outflanking in general, it only works against opponents who really don't see it coming at them. Once your opponents learn to keep things away from the immediate board edges, the liability in time and force concentration starts to really eat into this strategy. It's why I no longer bother with al'rahem myself anymore.

Furthermore, it never makes sense to outflank an LRBT. Was its 72" range somehow lacking?

I think the bonus to outflanking the Russ would not be to bring into range. Outflanking protects it from destruction. Once the opponent commits his forces at the initial fire base, the outflanking tank can come in away from the enemy and shoot unharmed. Now the opponent either has to divert his forces to deal with it.

However, this can probably be accomplished by setting up two fire bases requiring your deep striking opponent to split his forces.

I don't personally like this strategy as it keeps the big gun from shooting the first turn or two. Also, splitting up your forces rarely is a great idea. Spreads your force concentration and doesn't let the units help each other. But, if you can find a way to make it work, good job.

Thanks for the responses.

I just recently learned the power of the 30pt astropath (2+ reserve roll, and re-roll to ouflank). indeed, it would be nice if he was cheaper, and same with Creed, and Al Rahem.

Were they all worth it? Perhaps I could have gone without one of them, but which one?

Creed is 90 points. I only used him to outflank my Lemans, so was he worth it? I suppose I could have purchased a few more heavy weapon upgrades, but this particular BA player had me in assault so fast, it would not have mattered. Jump infantry just hides out of LOS anyway. It's the most maddening thing in the world to play "wack a mole" with jump infantry. Getting LOS on sneaky marines from across the entire table was priceless.

It would not have been reliable without the astropath. It's nice to be 80% sure your gonna get your reserves, and 90% sure you're going to get the correct board edge. I could have gone with a cheap vehicle, or a decked out vet squad instead, but I'd really be giving in to the will of the dice to just completely dash my plans.

Al Rahem - I've used him before, and I was convinced i'd never, ever, use him again (he would just get utterly stranded somewhere, what a waste). He gained some appeal when I realized that I had a lot more control of his destiny. I did not intend him to murder the enemy, just grab linebreaker and any stray objectives, using cheap units. It was a bit sloppy, but seemed to work out.

I feel good about these ideas. I realize that taking all 3 special characters is a lot (30+90+70 = 190 pts). I think Al Rahem is probably the weakest choice. I don't know, I'd like to try this with Storm Troopers.

Overall I feel that controlling the board is helping. The guys I play with have too many ways to beat a static gun line. I'd have to be crazy to play that way again, after being beaten so many times.

Thanks again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros - I didn't see your post before. Thank you, I've read a lot of your posts, I really enjoy keeping up with your army. Seriously, I'm a fan!

I don't know what other people's experiences are, but the guys I play with are all-out, in your face, murder-town. Orks, BA, GK, SW, CSM - they're not all meant to be played super-aggressive, but they guys I play with build them that way.

So, when I've got 2 Storm Ravens nuking my tanks, or an AV14 Battle Wagon rolling over my aegis, or a drop pod at my doorstep - literally ANY unit that is close to my table edge is facing it's demise, sometimes by my own weapons.

So what is the advantage of outflanking? To accomplish what most Guard players can do normally - fire at range.

I understand there is a hard counter to outflanking, and I'm expecting their game to change as a result of this. Hopefully I can adapt as easily as they can.

Outflanking demolishers are always a solid bet, though like most IG special characters they are way over costed especially considering their normally horrible saves.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Outflanking demolishers are always a solid bet, though like most IG special characters they are way over costed especially considering their normally horrible saves.

Solution: Give them a Vendetta.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Outflanking demolishers are always a solid bet, though like most IG special characters they are way over costed especially considering their normally horrible saves.

Solution: Give them a Vendetta.

So that you can't use the abilities you just payed for ? IG special chars in vendettas are never the way to roll. They are mostly officers, and officers are there to give orders to buff your mediocre guardsmen bob. If he is zooming around in a vendetta he isn't going to do that.
If you have to stick them in something, let it be a chimera. They can issue orders, chimera is cheap and comes with some dakka. If it stays behind the Infantry it gets a decent cover save and if you are shoving Lemans in his face his heavy guns will have bigger problems on there hands.

As for the the combo OP is talking about, I've enjoyed running special weapon squads with demo, and a Demolisher as back up. It's expensive, I won't deny it, but it packs a hell of a punch. It also has that fear factor to it. And remember, 40k is as much about psychological warfare as it is about dice.

Edit : added the chimera bit and fixed some stupid typos

I was thinking about this combo just the other day. I imagine if you were using creed to outflank something you would want short-ranged high killing power units...3 x medusas or 3 x demolishers. Al rahem can easily bring in a bunch of chimeras, SWS's and flamers.

Rather than tell us how it can't work, can we think of how it could work? For example, would it work best as having everything reserve or with a gunline? I would think outflanking chimeras with flamer PCS's and flamer mounts would be great at circumventing defenselines and such. While the ability to bring in 24" range s10 weapons into an opponents side would be nice as well.

So, how do you think it COULD work?

ender502

 ender502 wrote:


So, how do you think it COULD work?

For it to work, your opponent has to make a mistake. It's similar to flier heavy lists; if your opponent feels secure leaving their edge and pushing forward, out of cover on turn one, due to your lack of immediate threats, 2 meduae and a punisher popping in from the flank would really deal some damage.
Similarly, with Al'Rahem, you can come in and pop some vehicles or rapid fire a small scoring unit to death and waltz onto the objective they were camping.

Both rely on your opponent forgetting you have strong outflanking units though. It's not an ideal method to leave your possibility of winning in your opponent's hand.

I would have sworn that someone had posted about some tournament success with an all creed/alrahem outflanking force.

I am not so sure that success would depend on anyone leaving cover... you could go with 3xcolossus and not have to worry about that too much. In conjunction with meltas in vendettas and chimeras you could do some real damage.

ender502

 ender502 wrote:
colossus

Eh, not a fan. For their points cost they're an incredibly specialist unit. I like things to be able to do more than one role.

Also, there's no point in outflanking colossi, they don't need LoS and have long range; so you gain nothing from putting them closer to the enemy and missing out on a turn of shooting.

I don't thye are as specialist as you think...except tosa y they turn MEQ into paste..in cover or not. I prefer the medusa if I were going to outflank. Equally as nice against vehicles as infantry...and a bit cheaper as well. Anyone in cover would need to be dealt with by other units i'd imagine... IG has a lot flamer options.

I guess the real question to ask is whether or not there is a reason to outflank at all. Considering the meta of the game does outflank help? In some cases there is certainly an argument to be made for units to outflank....

ender502

I would say keep the colossi on the board turn 1 to drive your opponent from cover.

Outflanking a squad of 2 demolishers and a punisher with MM sponsons would probably be pretty good. They share the same range and can provide a dual role of horde and armor. You've got an effective range 30in with your movement onto the board edge, which isn't something to scoff at. Even if he does huddle up in the middle of the board, it won't matter what side you come on you should still be able to hit him. That's also why you take the astropath.

Still this is one costly list. I can't imagine this at anything less than 2000pts.

The colossus won't drive them out of cover though...unless they run. There's no reason to not be in cover, even with a colossus around.

The reason I call it specialist, is not because it's obvious anti-MEQ role (since it can shoot at any infantry) but because it's only useful against infantry who are in area terrain, with quite a hefty points cost. Most lists do not have trouble with str:6 spam, but a basilisk or medusa can be used as anti-tank and anti-infantry. While they may not be as effective against infantry in area terrain, they're just as effective (if not more with a higher strength) against infantry behind cover.

Multi-role units are king. Infantry can't stay in area terrain forever, and even if they do, I have FOMT.

 Griddlelol wrote:
The colossus won't drive them out of cover though...unless they run. There's no reason to not be in cover, even with a colossus around.

The reason I call it specialist, is not because it's obvious anti-MEQ role (since it can shoot at any infantry) but because it's only useful against infantry who are in area terrain, with quite a hefty points cost. Most lists do not have trouble with str:6 spam, but a basilisk or medusa can be used as anti-tank and anti-infantry. While they may not be as effective against infantry in area terrain, they're just as effective (if not more with a higher strength) against infantry behind cover.

Multi-role units are king. Infantry can't stay in area terrain forever, and even if they do, I have FOMT.

Yes I see your point on the other artillery. My friends and I play with a lot of area terrain so it's always a problem for myself. At that point it really depends on the meta.

Still depending on what the opponent brings as far as AT goes, sitting in terrain isn't going to help you either. They'll need to deal with the colossi one way or the other. If their AT is mainly mech then this isn't a problem, but if it's infantry for whatever reason, then their going to have some problems as they'll usually want to keep those in terrain. That's the nice thing about the artillery in general is that you can hide in from LOS and force the opponent to come to you. I like the colossus for it's AP3, obviously, as most people do. Being able to destroy a wide range of infantry (even in cover) and remain out of LOS is very appealing. Isn't that the name of the game most of the time? Take out your opponents troops and you deny them their scoring units. As far as vehicles go, you could just load up on LCs in infantry squads. Go for popping transports and then have a unit or two of colossus take out the stuff that was inside. I might not have a unit that provides a dual role, but that is why I would make up for it in other areas.

Still even being in cover, and having a lot of things outflank on you, you are now concerned with dealing with the multiple fronts. I think the idea behind a proper Al'Rahem list is to have a list where your units on the board can sit back, bombard, and soften up the targets for whatever it is you decide to outflank. So units like the Colossus, Manticore, and lascannons I think would be of more use in what you start with turn 1. Have your outflanking units be things that are more hardy like the leman russ variants with rear 11 armor. They're good tanks for one, and even one point increase in rear armor can make a little difference if you are assaulted by grenade wielding maniacs. You could also supplement this by throwing in some deep striking storm troopers to mop up or harass.

It's a decent strategy, but I think reserving too much of your army or something really powerful lets your oppenent plan ahead for it. The best suggestions would to be to split into 2 firebases with something else still outflanking to give your opponent 3 areas to be worried about. A blob squad popping up on my back field would scare me, or even a squadron of demolishers. Think Hammer of Anvil.

The only caveat to reserving a large portion of your forces is you reduce your target saturation.