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I am playing a 3000pts games against a friend of mine this weekend and I need some tactical advise.

Here is the list that I am expecting from my friend:

HQ
4x daemon princes (wings, maces and the weapons that makes it S9 in cc)
Elite
6x maulerfiends (all with tentacles and the weapons that gives it +1 to vehicle damage table)
Fast
4x Helldrakes all with the torent fire weapon
Troop
3x Cultist (10 men each)
Heavy
Predator with twinlinked las cannon and las cannon sponson
Defense
1X Aegis Defense Line with Laser

We ussually play 1500pts and it consist of exactly half of the above list. His list has won 6 or 7 games and only my armored gunline list has narrowly defeated him once in a 7 round game.

Here is what I have in mind for the 3000pts armored gunline list with some counter attack force.

HQ
Pedro
Librarian (space marine) with force axe, nullzone and maybe gate of infinity or the skill that makes it initiative 10
2X Librarian (DA) force field generator, devination power that allows re-roll to hit

Elite
5X Sternguard (2x meltagun, 3x Combi plasma)
5X Sternguard (2x meltagun, 3x Combi plasma)
5X Sternguard (2x meltagun, 3x Combi plasma)
5X Sternguard (2x meltagun, 3x Combi plasma)
2X Ironclad with 2x Hunterkiller missile each (SM)
Venerable Dread with multi-melta (DA)

Heavy
3X Landraider (2X twin-linked lascannon, multimelta, twin-linked heavy bolter) (space marine)
Devastator squad with 7 men (4x missile launcher with flakk) (DA)

Troop
5X Scout (SM)
5X Scout (SM)
5X Scout (DA)

Defense
Fortress of Redemption (Krakstorm missile, Twin Linked Icarus Las Cannon, 4x heavy bolter)

The Idea is to position the Dreads in front inside ruins and terrain which will fire off their hunterkiller missiles and hope for a lucky hit. They will then move out of line of sight in the ruin and act as counter assault unit. Daemon prince will be I 1 when attacking target in ruin and S10 attack will instant kill it if i get to hit. The dread will also hit the maulfiend first since in has higher initiative than the maul fiends giving it a chance to destroy them first.

Behind the dreads I will position my land raider with sternguards. Pedro and librarian will be in the landraider, pedro giving extra attack to the ironclads and libby doing nullzone. Sternguards act as seconddline counter attack element.

Back line consist of Frotress of redemption troops manning the las cannon and missiles, one unit of sternguards manning the heavy bolters from the tall towers and devastator in the front section firing from the fire points. DA libby will be in the fortress providing reroll blessing to units within 12 inch and provide 4+ invulnerable saves to the landraider to make them more resilient to assault. Sternguard will popout to battlement to fire at mauler fiends and princes that gets too close to the fortress or is assaulting the fortress. The extra dakka from heavy bolter is used against the princes that gets too close.

I am expecting to get 1-2 kill in first turn, mostly maul fiends. All units will focus fire on maulfiends first then deal with daemon princes. Devastator and icarus lascannon will shoot heldrakes if opportunity arise (e.g. when no maul fiend or demon prince in sight to shoot). Krakstorm missile will shoot maulfiend in first two turns and later shoots the unprotected enemy troops.

Hope the dice god is on my side. What do the expert think? I have never played 3000pts game and this cheese chaos list is harddest to beat list in my gaming community. Advise appreciated. Thanks.

Are you sure you want those landraiders? Those mauler fiends and daemon princes can all destroy them easily, too many points in one place, if you can bubble wrap and protect them they are great against heldrakes. Maulers weakness is they are dreadnaughts, so a basic squad with grenades can deal with them. They munch vehicles tho.

Daemon princes weakness is that once they have landed and munched a squad a strength 10 shot can instant death them.

Try and be sneaky on deployment, You want to get to get as many turns of shooting at those maulers as you can. Keep your tin cans alive and you can survive the drakes.

TH/SS termies will be able to do ok against both daemon princes and maulers and should make its way into your list,

Vindicators can also instant kill a landed daemon prince. I would run vindicators TH/SS termies with basic troops and castle up with a quad gun or your fortress, you want an intercept shot at the drakes. Bubble wrap your vindicators with some troops with meltas in rhinos, make the maulers and daemon princes get through those before they can get to the vinidi, if the daemons land and munch the squad protecting them insta gig those daemon princes with the vindi and see his 300 points evaporate.

So if all goes perfect, and it wont, you will get two turns of shooting at the maulers, then the maulers will waste another turn killing those rhinos (turn 3) then your melta finishes them off. The daemon princes swoop in a munch a squad each and your dreads or vindi finish them off. With your TH/SS termies plugging the holes wherever needed. Hopefully you have some troops in rhinos left, or a landraider if you kept it and bubble wrapped it, you sweep his cultists grab the objectives and weather the drakes with land raiders and termies immune to most of there shinanigans.

Have your troops in rhinos so they are protected from the drakes, but also so the maulers have to kill the rhinos and then your squads can handle the maulers on the next turn. Protect your vindicators with rhino blockers.

Those heldrakes will have a field day against those sternguard. Termies or cheap marines troops are the options.

He has minimal long range shooting, so rhinos arn't easy prey,

He has next to no troops. He is definitely playing to kill your army.

Hope that helps a bit. He is playing a very aggressive army would make for a fun game.

Thank you for the advise.

I have come up with an alternative list below:

HQ:
Vulkan
Librarian with force axe, nullzone and the skill that makes him initiative 10 (sm)
2x Librarian with force axe, divination power that gives it reroll to hit and shield generator (DA)

Elite:
5x Sternguard (2x meltagun, meltabombs and 3x combi-plasma)
5x Sternguard (2x meltagun, meltabombs and 3x combi-plasma)
2x Ironclad Dread with 2x hunterkiller missile each
techmarine (sm)

Troop:
5X tactical (meltagun, meltabombs) in razorback with las cannon and twin-linked plasmagun (sm)
5X tactical (meltagun, meltabombs) in razorback with las cannon and twin-linked plasmagun (sm)
5X tactical (meltagun, meltabombs) in razorback with las cannon and twin-linked plasmagun (DA)
5X tactical (meltagun, meltabombs) in razorback with las cannon and twin-linked plasmagun (DA)
5X scout with boltgun (DA)
5X scout with boltgun (DA)

Heavy:
Landraider with multimelta, 2x twin-linked las cannon and twin-linked heavy bolter
Landraider with multimelta, 2x twin-linked las cannon and twin-linked heavy bolter
Vindicator
Devastator squad with 4x missile launcher

Defense:
Fortress of redemption with krakstorm missile and twin-linked las cannon

The Idea is to hit the enemy with 7 las cannon, 8 missiles, s8 ap 3 large blast and s10 ap2 large blast at first turn hoping to kill 1-3 the maulfiends. second turn, the dreads and the troops should be able to kill the rest of the maul fiends with meltas and assault. If I go first I will have 2 turns of shooting which will kill at least one maul fiend. The sternguard,tanks and devastator should be able to deal with the flying daemon princes if they land. Ignore the air unit or take shots when there are no targets to shoot for the devastators and the icarus las cannon. What do you think?

What's going in the Land Raiders?

the 2 sternguard units goes into the landraiders...ready to welcome the daemon princes with plasma and meltas. My opponent will want those sternguard out asap, he is super scared of them. In last few games my sterguards forces his princes to just hover around the map doing vector strikes and taking out less important target.

The plasma is really a waste, theres really no suitable target for it, maybe more melta or flamers for those tasty cultists saves some points

plasma is there to kill the daemon princes. It can also kill the maulfiends av 12 in emergency situation. i am not worried of cultist since the missiles and krakstorm can deal with them in one or two turns

4 daemon princes coming his way would disagree, i think plasma is perfect for taking them out. When they land you can dump a huge amount of shots of them. If you castle a corner it also makes it hard for him to vector strike anything. So they will be circling in fear. Which is what you want.


Just keep them safe from those heldrakes or its bbq time.

Its quite good, you have nothing massive that his dp can swoop and pluck to make it worth his dp getting shot and killed the next turn, and if those lasbacks are in the way of the vindi and landraider then if they sacrifice a mauler to get a lasback you are ahead as well. As long as you can kill it on the next turn.

You just have to make sure those 6 maulers don't hit all at once with the dps or you will be in trouble. Your deployment will be the most important.

I don't think the maulfiends can attack at the same time since afew of them will be shot down. The dread at the front hiding behind ruins will change his approach tactics The tank will stay clear of cover or ruins because they will be enhanced with 4++ save from the DA libby. The tank will be deployed at the very back to maximize shooting time. I just worry about vindicator doing some friendly fire....it will be disastous for my tank formation. I am actually thinking of bringing las predator instead.

id recommend if you have him Pappa Smurf Marneus Calgar. Hes expensive in termy armor but at 3000 points that isnt a problem. hes the biggest beat stick we have in our codex and his combat tactics are super helpfull in our army.

papa smurf not useful against this list. Deamon prince would waste him. I tried lysander and he is still gets killed quite often by the princes. Sternguard and librarian is the only thing that the dp fear in our army.

I assume you're playing apocalypse rules? Both initial armies are illegal otherwise...

His troops are the weak point - cultist squads are easy pickings. Remember to play the mission - consider focussing on the cultists, and once they're gone he cannot hold objectives.

 Hedgehog wrote:
I assume you're playing apocalypse rules? Both initial armies are illegal otherwise...

You can go for double the standard organisation chart at 2000+ points which is what they are doing.

@OP 4 Princes and 4 Drakes really is some heavy stuff. Your second list could work though.

Personally I would take Dark Angels main, your going to need the preferred enemy everywhere. Personally knowing how these units perform (maulerfiend and helldrakes) the drakes are going to waste your army, you have got nothing for them besides one icarus.

If your friend has any semblance of playing he will hang the maulerfiends and princes back until after the 4 drakes tear your army apart, and then proceed to get assaulted by 10 cc geared beasts, with your msu tactics, downing fiends and princes with leaks will be rough

I think this list needs a complete redo, if your list stacking, against the drake you need 2+, or you need more bodies by a ton


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remove all the sternguard and add 3x ten man assault terminator units with th/ss, and get lysander to lead a stern unit for the cc prowess and Bolter drill if you plan on staying with vanilla, if not you needs anti air like crazy

The game is just using the normal 40K rule and I am aware that we can deploy double the amount at 2K and above.

My opponent is aware that his cultist is not the bright spot in his army. He only brings them to satisfy deployment requirement. He careless about holding objectives and cares more about eliminating the opposition in five turns. His weakness is first blood and warlord point. It is easy to defeat or tie him if I can get first blood then kill his cultist. Easier said than done considering the amount of things charging at my army and he ussually have a few cultisthidden from line of sight. Spending resource to kill the hidden cultist means that I run the risk of getting wiped out of the table before the game ends. Difficult choices.

Having the Sternguard man the fortress’s Heavy Bolters is a bit of a waste of their guns/ ammo IMO, scouts or a tactical squad would be a better choice for that. Also have you considered giving some of the scouts sniper rifles to help kill off the daemon princes, Tellion manning a Quad gun is really nasty as well BS6 heavy 4 twin linked with skyfire.

bignickex wrote:
Having the Sternguard man the fortress’s Heavy Bolters is a bit of a waste of their guns/ ammo IMO, scouts or a tactical squad would be a better choice for that. Also have you considered giving some of the scouts sniper rifles to help kill off the daemon princes, Tellion manning a Quad gun is really nasty as well BS6 heavy 4 twin linked with skyfire.

If you are referring to my first list, the sternguard is in the tower to scare the demon princes from reducing my fortress to ruins. Basically if the demon prince decide to land near my fortress the sternguard will move to the nearest battlement and plasma him to death. They only shoot heavy bolter in their spare time waiting in the tower. I actually use scout to fire the emplaced guns and missile silos. I used to put tellion on missile silos where he can reduce drifting and allocate tons of s8 ap3 wound (krakstorm) on enemy unit. Many times i kill enemy HQ this way. If i see 2+ armour enemy HQ i use tellion on the twin-linked icarus and instakill it. But that tactic is useless against the list I am facing next.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arthas367 wrote:
Personally I would take Dark Angels main, your going to need the preferred enemy everywhere. Personally knowing how these units perform (maulerfiend and helldrakes) the drakes are going to waste your army, you have got nothing for them besides one icarus.

If your friend has any semblance of playing he will hang the maulerfiends and princes back until after the 4 drakes tear your army apart, and then proceed to get assaulted by 10 cc geared beasts, with your msu tactics, downing fiends and princes with leaks will be rough

I think this list needs a complete redo, if your list stacking, against the drake you need 2+, or you need more bodies by a ton


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remove all the sternguard and add 3x ten man assault terminator units with th/ss, and get lysander to lead a stern unit for the cc prowess and Bolter drill if you plan on staying with vanilla, if not you needs anti air like crazy

I have actually thought of that. The helldrake will not do too much damage to my boxes because i will position the tanks at the rear line and he can only vector strike me by turn 3 and maybe strike again at turn 5. The fire is not going to do much to the boxes and I also have 4++ on my boxes thanks to the DA libby with shield generator. The devastator squad has flakk, but i will only use them to shoot the drake when nothing else to shoot at. I focus on dealing with his ground forces first.

Your approaching list with a bad 5th ed mindset, the daemon princes are nothing compared to the drakes you spent a ton of points on a fotress that they don't care about

Your playing msu- mech against 4 stakes either throw down 100+ marines or prepare to vector strike you out of your transports then turret flame the crew, heaven help you if its killpoints, you need 2+ armor, horde, and anti air or better yet a mix there of, this lists killing power is below many 2k lists I see in tourneys or my flgs in general

3 x helldrakes can easily kill 60 marines over the course of game, you don't even posses that in 3k......your in serious trouble bro if this list doesn't see major change, imo drakes are one of the top 3 models in the game at the moment practically auto take x2 in every chaos list




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your really thinking inside a vortex here, you stay inside your boxes who's out there to shoot 6 maulerfiends depending on the setup type 2nd turn on you easily

You get out of your tanks, theirs 4 helldrakes, and still 6 maulerfiends, and 4 dps, this list is going to get up on you quick and end half your army in one blow.

Helldrakes and maulerfiends are notoriously hard to kill with daemonic rule and it will not die, if your army isn't dedicated to bringing them down and by extension all the daemon princes, you've got maybe a turn before swooping princes and maulerfiends tie you down, rip apart your tanks, and leave you exposed to the following turns of helldrakes

 Arthas367 wrote:
Your approaching list with a bad 5th ed mindset, the daemon princes are nothing compared to the drakes you spent a ton of points on a fotress that they don't care about

Your playing msu- mech against 4 stakes either throw down 100+ marines or prepare to vector strike you out of your transports then turret flame the crew, heaven help you if its killpoints, you need 2+ armor, horde, and anti air or better yet a mix there of, this lists killing power is below many 2k lists I see in tourneys or my flgs in general

3 x helldrakes can easily kill 60 marines over the course of game, you don't even posses that in 3k......your in serious trouble bro if this list doesn't see major change, imo drakes are one of the top 3 models in the game at the moment practically auto take x2 in every chaos list

Having played him a few times, he will care about the fortress especially if i have devastators in it and my warlord camping inside it.

Like i said it is actually not that easy to crack the av 11 boxes with 4+ invulnerable save (I have tested it a few times in trial game). Ap3 vector strike means that he need to roll 6 to explode it and expose the troops inside...which can only happen at turn 3. or turn 5. Average hit by vector strike should be around three hits and with 4+ invulnerable it should be reduced to 1.5 hits. Should take him 2 vector strike to glance my vehicle to death. By turn 3, my main concern will be the maulfiends that did not die and the daemon princes. I am expecting to sacrifice some troops to eliminate those threats. Once those are gone, I should have enough troop to capture point especially if they are loaded in the landraider.

I have actually been thinking about terminator squads, but i will not be able to counter so many close combat unit at the same time. The demon prince will slaughter the terminators badly. In the end i chose that list because it is a balance of long/short range anti tank and msu

In what world do daemonsl princes slaughr th/ss? They destroy them in short order, being a deathwing player quite some time, they fall apart after they take one wound from the hammer

And forget the vector strike his maulerfiends should be cruisemissling the vehicles while the drakes and princes murder your fortress of its inhabits, then procced to take it for their own

Your list just lacks real killing power msu- sternguard mech spam is barely subpar against an army of flyers

In my 2k list I run da/guard and with just a blob of guard 4++ with lascannons, bring it down, a pack of vendettas and an aegis defense line, for less than a third.of your points I have far superior anti air and tank capabilities

Here is what I recommend. Bring lascannons for dealing with maulerfiends. any twin-linked will do, even for the helldrakes if their hard to hit. Drop pod your sternguard or land raider them. All combi-flamers or meltas if your bringing vulkan. His rule for twin-linking them is useless if your using nothing but plasma and your not hindered by gets hot! I played chaos plenty and burning out cultists with flamers and lascannon, melta spamming works perfect for their bigger things. Invest in a vindicator as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I forgot to mention, cast prescience on your sternguard, you wont regret it!

 Arthas367 wrote:
In what world do daemonsl princes slaughr th/ss? They destroy them in short order, being a deathwing player quite some time, they fall apart after they take one wound from the hammer

And forget the vector strike his maulerfiends should be cruisemissling the vehicles while the drakes and princes murder your fortress of its inhabits, then procced to take it for their own

Your list just lacks real killing power msu- sternguard mech spam is barely subpar against an army of flyers

In my 2k list I run da/guard and with just a blob of guard 4++ with lascannons, bring it down, a pack of vendettas and an aegis defense line, for less than a third.of your points I have far superior anti air and tank capabilities

Well it would be nice to have those vandettas. I fortunately, i don't have IG and probably won't play them due to preference. I agree that having IG allies will increase fire power by manyfold.

I hhave played his list at 1500pts a few times and my th/ss die on the charge especially if it is charged by two princes. He will generate 8-12 wounds per charge and i will have 2-3 dead terminators if i am lucky before i hit back. assuming i have 5 th/ss in close combat that means he will take about half of my men before i hit back. I will then have to hit him with the hammer which only hit at 5+ due to his ws9 and probably land 1-2 hit if i am lucky, roll to wound and add to his invulnerable save i will be lucky to deal 1 wound which will make him I1 next turn. if he is the prince with the special mace then i need to roll a t tesst which might kill one more guy. next turn i will only have one th/ss to fight his 3 wwound prince...what is the odd of winning? If i get charged by 2 then its over before they start fighting.

If your list stacking as you are doing here and aren't bringing the correct tools (lysander, th/ss to accompany him, inner circle. Units)

Just play deathwing take 60 terminators that are scoring 12 cmls, lots of th/ss and just march across the board he doesn't have any shooting of note might aswell be a free win as anything that touches your horde will die, 24 rockets a turn will make sure princes that aren't in the air are dead, etc, etc. Helldrakes will bounce off, etc.etc will save you the trouble of playing a passive list without any real ranged firepower