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Hi folks,

So i've been looking at the pros and cons of each type of Eldar flyer and I figured i'd throw it out to discussion.

As far as I can tell, the Nightwing has decent survivability (i'm told up to a 2+ save, although i'm stuck on where to find the rules for "Agile" anywhere), however the Phoenix has one hell of a flexible armament (hitting ground targets at BS5). The wording of the Skyfire rule has me a bit confused though, it reads as if the Nightwing is only good for taking down aircraft and can't use its normal BS for ground targets, yet the Flyer rules say you can elect to use this rule or not... anyway, on to pros/cons.

Nightwing -

Highly survivable (2+ Cover)
2x Bright Lance and 2x Shuriken Cannon compliments for anti-tank or light vehicle duties
Less weapon systems than the Phoenix, not fantastic for Hordes (but not bad either)
One less HP than the Phoenix, however slightly higher survivability.

Phoenix -

Slightly less survivable than the Nightwing (gathing 3+ Cover)
1x Pulse Laser (interchange for TL-BL or TL-StC)
2x Phoenix Missile Launchers (great for Anti-Smurf) or Nightfire Missiles (Anti-Horde duties respectively)
2x Shuriken Cannons
Ground targets get hit at BS5, Air at normal BS
So whilst more expensive points wise, the damage output is significant
Has an extra HP

The HP's don't really amount to much against anything bar standard infantry fire (as anything else has the chance to pen).

How to use them? I think in tandem they could cause alot of pain. I have a lot of Jetbikes and frankly, despite their cost, the tactical maneuverability of them is pretty much justified in my eyes (even of the model count in a 2k army is obscenely low). I'd like to see the Flyers do Anti-tank and light vehicle (even squadrons) duties. They certainly have the means to put transports out of action dividing forces to allow skirmishes. Alternatively, with the Nightfire missiles, the Phoenix has the capacity to put down 6x St4 blasts negating cover and pinning, followed by (depending on range) another 6x St6 rounds. Frankly I kind of see this as having the aspects of a flying Night Spinner.

So at a guess;

Nightwings - Great for cheap Anti-Air, Tank busting and light vehicle squadrons (if they get their full BS vs ground? Still unclear on this)

Phoenix - Great for Anti-Meq, Anti-Horde, Tank busting and light vehicle squadrons (excelling against ground targets with BS5)

Love to hear the thoughts of how others use them and in what kind of lists? As with all Eldar lists, Synergy is very important so keeping this in mind, have at it

I've used both of them in games and they are very much what they are intended to be. The nightwing is a fantastic anti-flyer. It can easily take anything else in the air (as it should be for eldar). The ability to turn twice in a turn really helps keep you from ending up in that useless corner of the battlefield.

The phoenix bomber is also well designed for what it does. I have preferred to run it as a concentrated anti infantry flyer. Give it the twin linked star cannons and you can lay down fire on any infantry unit in the game and reliably take it out. By using pulse lasers and bright lances on the other hand you feel like you have to diversify and occasionally fire at vehicles, which usually wastes all your other anti-infantry weapons.

I like to have a hornet run with them as well, twin pulse lasers makes it perfect for taking out everything but a land raider/monolith.

Now THAT's the kind of response I was looking for

Personally I have two of each (Nightwing and Phoenix) and half a dozen Hornets. I noticed the Hornets were far better points wise and had more flexibility than Vypers (actually they made Vypers look pretty plain). Sadly i've not used them at all since I bought them, owing to the fact of their points cost with Pulse Lasers and changes regarding the HP's in 6th - meaning they'd get dropped pretty quickly. I do have a bunch of Wasps though that can JSJ, however lack the punch of dual Pulse Lasers can bring.

Honestly I love the IA Eldar stuff, Corsairs included. Something about them brings that "hide and seek" aspect back to Eldar that has since been diluted by newer Codex books over the last 7 years.

My army builds consist of Jetbikes, Wasps and Flyers. The idea I guess being that the JSJ capabilities give them more survivability and the Flyers can tough it out in the air, provided the Anti-Air aspects of the opposing army are taken out promptly.

Keen to know if anyone has come up against Cronair with Eldar and done quite well? (and more importantly how they did it).

 Morachi wrote:
although i'm stuck on where to find the rules for "Agile" anywhere)

Bottom of page 5.

As for which is better, the Nightwing by far. Unless fast attack vs. heavy support is relevant the Nightwing gives you almost as much firepower (lacking only the phoenix missile launchers, which are decent but not amazing) for a much lower point cost. And of course the 2+ save is always nice when you're talking about a unit with such low AV.

Whilst there is a 80 point difference, you're basically looking at having two Dark Reaper Exarchs, one strapped under each wing at half the points cost for anti-infantry/MEQ duties. Even three standard Dark Reapers cost roughly 30% more at a lower BS. I guess it's what you're using it for.

When you say "by far", is this based purely on the survivability factor alone? From what I can see, the survivability factor is a 3+ vs a 2+?

Edit:

I might also add that my FA choices get taken up by half a dozen Wasps with Scatter Lasers. I don't go with normal War Walkers because, once exposed, they tend to fall very fast to pretty much anything in range. The most I could go is a single Nightwing in a FA slot with my currently considered list.

 Morachi wrote:
Whilst there is a 80 point difference, you're basically looking at having two Dark Reaper Exarchs, one strapped under each wing at half the points cost for anti-infantry/MEQ duties. Even three standard Dark Reapers cost roughly 30% more at a lower BS. I guess it's what you're using it for.

Don't forget that you can only fire four weapons at full BS.

When you say "by far", is this based purely on the survivability factor alone? From what I can see, the survivability factor is a 3+ vs a 2+?

Survivability and point cost. The Nightwing is almost as good offensively, way better defensively, and costs a lot fewer points. If I have a choice between three Nightwings and two Phoenixes I'm going to take the Nightwings without hesitation.

I might also add that my FA choices get taken up by half a dozen Wasps with Scatter Lasers. I don't go with normal War Walkers because, once exposed, they tend to fall very fast to pretty much anything in range. The most I could go is a single Nightwing in a FA slot with my currently considered list.

That's one of the few things that could justify the Phoenix, if you've already filled up your FA slots but still want more flyers. You'd still rather have a 4th FA for another Nightwing, but a Phoenix is better than nothing.

Fast Attack has become my most hotly contested FoC slot since I started using IA11 units. I've always loved my Warp Spiders, but now I've got the Nightwing and Hornets competing for that slot too. I have two flyers that are WiP and I'm magnetizing the wings and weapons so I can reconfigure it to look like a bomber or fighter. I think running out of FA FOC slots is what will get me to run the bomber. If you were already running HoloFalcons in 5th though, the bomber is not that much more expensive and has a lot more firepower and maneuverability.

I say keep the Pulse Laser and pick missiles that match your meta. It can still glance down flyers just as well as a Nightwing. But if you have a half dozen Hornets, then run a couple squadrons with Shuriken Cannons and a Nightwing and a Pheonix. Pulse lasers on Hornets are good, but a stock standard Hornet is amazing for the points. They should compliment your flyers well.

I know it is of topic but I am gone muse anyway: Why oh why does not the dark eldar planes have the vector dancer rule when the nightwing has? It is so mutch better!

I would wait to see the rumored Eldar flyer comming in March sometime...plastic will be cheaper....

The irony for us Aussies is that with current pricing, buying directly from Forgeworld is cheaper than buying plastic kits at GW Aus RRP.

Nightwing hands down. Eldar need ways to kill fliers. Nothing better than the nightwing's ability to jump on the tail of another flier. Only the stormraven will give you any problems. Also the only cost effective source of brightlances in the game. In my games they have been more than amazing. Had one kill a whole devi squad in 1 round of combat then go on to poke models off units for the rest of the game, absorbing silly amounts of fire. The next game one came on and killed 2 hyrdras in one round of shooting on side armor. My only complaint is the model. 1st, its too large for a fighter, especially around the nose. The moving wings are cool, but they odd no matter what position they are in. The tail of a plane should not be nearly the same size as the main wing, it throws off the aerodynamic look. I have one, but use 2 hightly converted razorwing as my other 2 and i think they look better (sheared the wings back more, added a small horizontal tail, thinned the nose even more, cut off all the DE bits and added eldar weapons)

The phoenix lacks any sort of focus. S5 shooting with low AP is good vs marines, but then it has a good anti-horde weapon in the two cannons and an AT weapons (no reason to trade out pulse laser when you are bs5). The higher cost and lower jink save makes it very iffy. However, it does have the ability to fire most of its firepower at 48", something no other flier can do. You can really harass and stay out of range of light arms fire that can hurt the nightwing (had one die to a thrown krak grenade).

Man that's some bad luck though. A single S6 attack at very short range? And you had the option of evading too.

I haven't used the Pheonix yet, but I'm thinking if you want to get within 24" and shoot both ShuCans and the anti-MEQ missiles you'd have 12 shots which would put some hurt on any horde unit. That's without paying more for the missiles that ignore cover and which are only really good against IG and Orks. I probably won't have a chance to test the Pheonix until May, but on paper it looks like it should do tons of damage to infanty and light vehicles and decent damage against mediumly armored vehicles.

Was trying to put together a 1k list that featured both flyers the other day, but I ended up finding that the cost of the Pheonix is just too high for small to moderately small games. Killy as I think it appears to be, I just can't fit it into a list that size. Not with the models I have and keeping to the overall play-style of the list.

My typical test of Eldar unit shooting strength efficiency is a point:S6 hit ratio. This is because my group uses a lot of 4+ ruins terrain so low AP shots are less valuable. Comparing units for me then becomes mostly about how many S6 hits they produce and what it costs me. Scatter Walkers are top dog in my lists and always get priority treatment. ShuCan Hornets and Warp Spiders are just behind them. This comparison method falls apart with the Pheonix because it packs so much AP3/2 and has the speed to get around cover, then turn with vector dancer and pound units. I want to try it so badly, but despite its damage potential the cost makes threat saturation difficult. And you're pretty well boned out of a lot of points if it gets smacked down by another flyer.

For reference, here is the 1k list I'm considering.

FortuneSeer - RoWard
5 DAs - Wave Serpent - TL Scatter, Underslung ShuCan
5 DAs - Wave Serpent - TL Scatter

Nightwing
Nightwing
2 Hornet - ShuCans

Scatter Walker
Scatter Walker

Though Wave Serpents suffer from Hull Points rules, I think they're still a solid bet if you want mobile troops but don't own jetbikes. Two Nightwings might not crush infanty on the ground, but I think they'll do well to help open transports and put down wounds. They also cover my AV14 issues with BLs and relieve my need for FDs which would need a Wave Serpent, costing more by comparison. This list is intended for 2 x 1,000 tag team games.

Interesting list, i'd be throwing the Spiders in if you can somehow - the model count in that list is frighteningly low. A JSJ unit would at least increase the model count and increase your survivability.

Point for point, the cost of 5 DA's with a Wave Serpent in your current config translates to a 7 strong Jetbike squad with two Shuriken Cannons for a marginally cheaper price. That also means you can JSJ with them as well + superior maneuverability.

Just food for thought.

I thought about the Spiders. Basically the issue was cost. A unit of Spiders loses it's punch almost instantly when it takes wounds if you take a small squad. And large squads cost a lot of points and still die to bolters once they get in range and start shooting. My preferred type of list is a hybrid list with a static element in an ADL holding onto objectives and a mobile element taking side armor shots and wearing down isolated units. In those lists I need Spiders as a binding unit between my offensive wing and my gun line. They support one or the other from about turn 2 and have the speed to return and help the other if need be. In that role I take as full a unit as I can get. This list is fully mechanized and 24-36" range. I wanted to keep that uniform to deny enemy anti-infantry and short range fire. It also serves to simplify my target priority (only scoring stuff and mid-high S long range stuff).

The other issue is my FA slots being full. The list is built to have two flyers so that's two slots gone. Now Spiders are competing with Hornets. Hornets are faster, longer range, immune to S4 and below on the sides and front, and have a more efficient S6 hits to cost ratio. IIRC maxed out Spiders (the way I run them) are 262 with hit and run, power blades and dual spinners. 22 S6 shots, or about 15 hits. 4 ShuCan Hornets are 260 for 24 S6 shots, or about 16 hits. Only marginally better, so I chose mainly based on target presentation and range.

Jetbikes I just don't own and won't own until they redo the kit. It looks dumb haha. I want to use them but I just can't until they don't look so stupid.I agree though, that overall the points they would provide me could probably improve my firepower and objective grabbing.

The only time i'd suggest Hornets is in a full squadron either touting dual Scatter Lasers or in smaller numbers with Pulse Lasers.

You're looking at 6 spiders vs 2 hornets - if you lose one hornet you're losing alot more punch than if you lost a single spider. To top that off, the Spiders can JSJ, the Hornet can't. Forget about the addons for the Spiders in games under 1k, the points are better spent on numbers - the Eldar simply can't afford such a low model count.

Also, If you're letting the spiders die to bolters, you're not using them correctly. I ran them a lot in tournaments and they never let me down - ever. The Hornet may be immune to St4 weapons, but alot of armies are packing in higher strength with multiple shots to accommodate for cover saves in 6th edition.

You also need something to brawl with if contesting an objective is at stake.

If you absolutely must take something else other than Warp Spiders, also consider the Wasp rather than the regular War Walkers - Again, JSJ. In low point games you're trying to maximise survivability by keeping out of sight with the one true advantage Eldar have - Speed.

In any case, best of luck with it all, in games under 1k you're fighting an uphill battle from the very start, mostly due to a dated Codex :/

PS: I'm keen on the new Jetbikes coming out since the current model is over 16 years old! I will be a bit pissy though given I have over 125 of them in my army at present, the thought of replacing them just isn't worth considering. Throwing the newer Guardians on them does help though admittedly.

You make some good points, but I think I still think for me it's likely to depend on the rest of the list. Here I want the Hornets more than 6 Spiders. With the Spiders they are the only guys on the board around to eat anti-infantry fire, so they're in more danger than they usually would be. Also with the changes to Rapid Fire, getting shot with bolters is much more likely than it used to be. I play my Spiders well enough that everyone I know hates them, but they do still suffer without LOS blocking terrain to jump behind.

You're right about it being handy to have CC options where objectives are concerned. Even if for nothing other than to pull someone off the objective. In the list I wrote I'd have to resort to tank-shocking off of it.

Oh and sorry we've gotten off topic. The list I posted is meant as an example of how things go when I try to fit in a Pheonix in smaller games. Cool as I think it looks, I just can't fit it in and still maintain the balance I want in my list. Does anyone have a good list that makes use of it?

I´ve used 3 x Hornets and they are great. I don´t have fliers (yet), so at the moment, i run Hornet (SL+SL), Hornet (BL+BL) and one with Pulse Laser x 2. One on each FA slot and they have fared awesomely! I usually outflank the Scatter Laser one and use the other two as primary fire power. Of course Heavy slots are occupied by 3 x 3 WW´s (SL+SL)...